Darin let me push you a bit to clarify your position. Are you arguing that because "gypsies are hated so much throughout Europe" that hatred is justified?
I was discussing the quotes from one of the previous comments. The author claimed that gypsies were oppressed, and horribly, through the years and throughout Europe. I accept that, I even mentioned the horrible attitude toward gypsies during the communist government. What I am trying to get at is, why are gypsies so widely hated? I understand the notion of pure racism and why some people would simply hate them for their looks, but as I said, I am not a racist (I have different friends from around the world, some asians, others arabs, etc.). So if not their looks, what's left? I can only think of the cultural differences and the economic hardship of the last 15 years in Bulgaria. But then again, not all European countries are as poor as Bulgaria, so why are gypsies hated there? I raised this discussion in hope to get to the point with your help.
This talk of "them" as "the other", as it refers to any group, always triggers warning signs for me, especially if it's tied to negative descriptions of "the other". It reminds me of historical descriptions of Blacks in the USA...
In Bulgaria they are always "the others" because they don't fit in the society. Bulgarians are mad, because they pay their taxes and can't raise their kids properly, while at the same time gypsies live off social welfare, because they have a lot of kids and don't pay taxes, as they are unemployed. They don't even pay for their electricity and government officials or representatives are afraid to go in their ghettos, because they are usually attacked for trying to cut off their electricity.
Last month a police car went in one of the ghettos, investigating a group of gypsies, who attacked someone (don't remember whether Bulgarian or gypsy). The people started throwing rocks at them and a couple of the gypsies attacked the police car with axes, I actually saw the photos, quite scary. So how can you expect people not to draw a line between the gypsies and themselves? Be careful! Is it classified?
Why do you look for a justifiable reason for racism? Jews, too, were hated universally. Many Christians believed that Jews sacrifice children, with zero basis in reality.
Alexandra spoke about a vicious cicle. That long history of the repression was also a long history of again and again reinforced and refined negative stereotypes about the Roma.
Have you read hitchhiker's link in the other thread? About the systematic media mis-representation of the Roma in Bulgaria, exemplified by that 1997 event when all the papers wrote in great detail about how a Roma family walking across a road caused a bus crash, yet police declared ten days later that no one at all walked across or along the road?
Racism needs no proof. They can make it up anytime.
In Bulgaria they are always "the others" because they don't fit in the society.
You just said you aren't racist. So why this blanket statement?
Do "well-clad, clean and behaving" Romas not fit into society (ones that shopkeeper thought hitchhiker is)?
And what is this society you speak about? Since they were born in Bulgaria and grew up there, they are just as much part of 'society' as you are. Either that, or we could speak of parallel societies. At any rate, they don't deserve you anything. (It's more like the majority deserves inclusion to the minority, due to their greater dependence.)
As for the rest of the rant (of blanket statements again), haven't the others just discussed the origins of this situation, and the lack of real attempts to change it?
By the way, have you read my accounts of how police and judges deal with Roma in the other thread? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Lemme refine this. Racism can also operate with proof - by turning the particular into the general. "some X did Y" becomes "X do Y". And unless members of X are 100% innocents, racism will always find examples to reinforce the theory. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Lemme refine this. Racism can also operate with proof - by turning the particular into the general. "some X did Y" becomes "X do Y". And unless members of X are 100% innocents, racism will always find examples to reinforce the theory.
n Bulgaria they are always "the others" because they don't fit in the society. You just said you aren't racist. So why this blanket statement? Do "well-clad, clean and behaving" Romas not fit into society (ones that shopkeeper thought hitchhiker is)? And what is this society you speak about? Since they were born in Bulgaria and grew up there, they are just as much part of 'society' as you are.
And what is this society you speak about? Since they were born in Bulgaria and grew up there, they are just as much part of 'society' as you are.
I will try to explain again. Most gypsies live in "katuns", i.e. they live with their families and neighboring families. Others, "institutionalized" gypsies, live in aparatment buildings, just like the Bulgarians and Turks, and they usually don't cause any trouble, because they want to be friendly with their neighbors. Since even policemen don't wander in the katuns unless something really gruesome happens (and even then they might get attacked), the gypsies there have a bigger freedom to do as they will (Bulgarian law or not).
Either that, or we could speak of parallel societies. At any rate, they don't deserve you anything. (It's more like the majority deserves inclusion to the minority, due to their greater dependence.)
Parallel societies within the legal boundaries of a country? If you go to another country, don't you willfully agree to be legally bound to the system in power?
What do you mean they don't deserve us anything? If they are within the legal boundaries of the state of Bulgaria (and mind you, a state that constitutionally inhibits ethnic conflicts and provides equal rights to everyone with a Bulgarian citizenship), they are obliged to follow the law, or face the consequences. In other words, they should pay their taxes just as we do, or they are breaking the law. Are you trying to give gypsies more rights than to Bulgarians or Turks?
We are seeing an interesting phenomenom - gypsies with Bulgarian citizenship can't even speak the official language of the country, and in fact, they really don't need to - they can understand each other perfectly in the katun.
By the way, have you read my accounts of how police and judges deal with Roma in the other thread?
Must of skipped it, will read it right away, though I can imagine. I will comment on that on the other thread! Be careful! Is it classified?
BTW, I once trekked in Slovakia with a friend, who had this idea that Gypsy quarters are no-go zones for "whites". But our road from the train station to the woods led through a Gypsy quarter. I told him "So what?" and he had to follow... On the way back to the station in the evening, he was unconcerned
Actually the Bulgarian government had your vision of ghettos being safe, so they built a metal docking station (the ghetto is near the port of Burgas). Gypsies managed to disassemble it for about half an year, including the big crane, which was used for work. Metal is expensive, so near the ghetto there are no road signs or grates on the ground, just big holes, than can cause driving accidents. Be careful! Is it classified?
I take you weren't attacked in the ghetto, nor have been into many ghettos (I suspect you have been to none), so your position is not too logical. Even if near, the docking site is outside the ghetto, and scrap metal thievery is not the same as robbery, so again two illogical links, and I again get the sense of a sweeping statement about something that all/most Gypsies do. And question regarding the docking station is, of course, proper guarding.
Now, scrap metal thievery is another separate problem usually linked to Gypsy perpetrators, one I as someone working for a railway is familiar with, so this shall be the main part of my reply. This is also to inform the Westerners here about something they may not know much about.
A number of nomadic Gypsy clans used to be specialised in collecting nicked or broken metalware from peasants, and either repairing and re-selling it, or bringing it to scrap metal handlers. After the 'communist' dictatures crushed nomadic lifestyles and the 1989/90 changes brought joblessness and a throwaway economy, some members of these clans switched to thievery of public property, including metal in disused state factories, railroad catenary, signal cables, even rails.
The first thing I note is, obviously, that metal thieves aren't necessarily active only near their dwelling places. They are even active beyond borders. When catenary is stolen along a strech of 30 km, that's long already. One spectacular case was the tearing-up of railway tracks leading to a prison near Munich in Germany. In Hungary, I once read of a gang from Romania being caught.
The second thing to note is that while Gypsies are usually assumed as perpetrators hereabouts, it can't be taken for certain that Gypsies constituted the thieves. A counterexample: I once participated (in a very small part) in a project to re-live a narrow-gauge railway, where a difficulty was that most of the rails were torn up and stolen - reportedly by local villagers who came with carts and lorries. There are no Gypsy quarters in villages of that region (but there is poverty). Meanwhile, in Northern Germany, metal theft is usually blamed on Polish organized crime (and there are very few Gypsies in Poland).
The third, and most important, thing to note is that every form of theft not for own consumption is a supply/demand problem, which is best solved on the demand side, and so far we only looked at the supply side.
The demand side problem is crooked scrap metal handlers who don't look at the origins of what they buy (and reap most of the profit from the theft, I note) - some of them even designate targets to the thieves -, and controllers who are either corrupt or have insufficient means/time for the job. (My railway sometimes sent out scouts on its own, and then scrap metal handlers shrugged when asked how they could buy two tons of cables with a railway emblem two days after the media were full of the news of a hit on a railway line.) *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
The father of a friend of mine usually operates rather big train composition; he used to handle the train going to Sofia. He was once rewarded with a medal for stopping just in time, some 20-30 meters before a large cut section on the railway tracks. He saw the gypsies using anglecutters from afar, for what I remember, so he was able to stop the train from derailing just in time. Be careful! Is it classified?
