I think you severely underestimate a few things, including the difficulty of overcoming discrimination by sheer force of will, and the cumulutive effects of hundreds of years of systematic oppression.
You have here a people who have been enslaved, executed, excluded and forcibly sterilized. Their children have been taken from them "for their own good." They have at some times been banned from churches and at other times forced to attend them. It seems that there is not a country in Europe that has not persecuted them, with America doing its share of that as well.
After centuries of that kind of treatment, you can't just snap your fingers and tell people that they can trust "mainstream" society now. You know how long memories are in the Balkans; 1389 was just yesterday, right?
And it is clear from your diary and hitchhiker's that they can still count on being discriminated against, whether they fit the stereotype or not.
There is a name for blaming and punishing an entire group for the actions of some of its members. It's called collective punishment, and it was specifically outlawed under the Genevea Conventions, specifically in the Fourth Convention, article 33, and the Second Protocol.
Those particular chunks of international law refer to armed conflict, not peaceful democracies, but I would argue that collective punishment is even less justifiable in the absence of war.
As you point out, there continues to be widespread discrimination against Roma in many countries in Europe, some of it still quite systematic. The first thing that needs happen is that those countries with discriminatory laws on their books need to change them.
Let us take your specific example of education. Assuming that you are correct about Roma "refusing" to send their children to school (and you do say that you know some educated Roma, so it can't be 100 percent true), the solution lies not in berating the Roma for doing this, but in finding out why they place so little value on education and doing something to address those factors.
My guess is that if this is true of some families, it is because they see no benefit in education.
This is a major issue in many developing countries, especially in rural/agricultural communities, and especially when it comes to the education of girls. When education of a child will do nothing to benefit the family or the community, but will deprive the family and community of the work of a productive member, what's the incentive to let the child go to school?
Are people willing to hire educated Roma? I asked this question before, and it's important. If an educated Rom is not significantly more likely to find work than a non-educated Rom, what's the incentive to get an education? Why make the effort, if potential employers will turn you away as a "dirty gypsy" and shopkeepers kick you out of their stores before you can spend your money?
Rather than just berate the Roma for intrasigence and "refusal to change," a more productive approach would be addressing the root causes of their marginalization. And taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination against them is a good place to start.
If the cycle is to be broken, it must start somewhere. You seem to be expecting the victims of discrimination to stop others from discriminating against them. I would argue that the people doing the discriminating are the only ones who can do that.
I still think the basic problem is in saying that it's their fault that they're discriminated against.
They are discriminated against, because of the general notion against gypsies, you are right. But it is not like they suddenly changed their ways, so they stopped stealing and are extremely eager to integrate into the society, but we don't allow them to, right?
You have here a people who have been enslaved, executed, excluded and forcibly sterilized. Their children have been taken from them "for their own good."
There was an uproar from the media about big numbers of gypsies going to Greece to give birth and sell their kids. They were OK with it, but some started reporting to the Bulgarian police, that they have been cheated, and received less money than expected. Gypsies didn't even know that human trafficking was against the law.
This proves another point. People in western societies wouldn't mind having a gypsy for a kid, while people from the Balkans put gypsies without parents in foster homes and leave them there growing up without any love from anyone close to them. The only good side is that receive some basic education there (though this is far from comforting).
It seems that there is not a country in Europe that has not persecuted them, with America doing its share of that as well.
Last night I read that Sweden gave more gypsies than Jews to the Nazis. You are right here.
I mentioned we have a shop and had a lot of gypsies create troubles for us in the past. Yet we never refused a gypsy to enter the shop and buy goods. In fact we used to trade with some of them, trying to have a business of their own. But if a gypsy enters the shop, all eyes will be on him, watching his every move - you can't forget how gypsies used to steal clothes or pick pocketed the customers.
There is a name for blaming and punishing an entire group for the actions of some of its members. It's called collective punishment, and it was specifically outlawed under the Genevea Conventions, specifically in the Fourth Convention, article 33, and the Second Protocol. Those particular chunks of international law refer to armed conflict, not peaceful democracies, but I would argue that collective punishment is even less justifiable in the absence of war.
Let us take your specific example of education. Assuming that you are correct about Roma "refusing" to send their children to school (and you do say that you know some educated Roma, so it can't be 100 percent true), the solution lies not in berating the Roma for doing this, but in finding out why they place so little value on education and doing something to address those factors. My guess is that if this is true of some families, it is because they see no benefit in education. This is a major issue in many developing countries, especially in rural/agricultural communities, and especially when it comes to the education of girls. When education of a child will do nothing to benefit the family or the community, but will deprive the family and community of the work of a productive member, what's the incentive to let the child go to school?
A deep bow for that. You managed to put your finger on the issue. Gypsies have big families, because that means high income (the Chinese "syndrome").
If you are a black person, though, you wouldn't meet such disrespect; there were a lot of African students in Bulgaria during the communist time (some Asian as well). So we are still facing a general distrust in gypsies.
Rather than just berate the Roma for intrasigence and "refusal to change," a more productive approach would be addressing the root causes of their marginalization. And taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination against them is a good place to start. If the cycle is to be broken, it must start somewhere. You seem to be expecting the victims of discrimination to stop others from discriminating against them. I would argue that the people doing the discriminating are the only ones who can do that.
In fact this is the first time someone called me a racist, and I felt horrible after you wrote that. Not one of my international friends ever called me that, even though we discussed such issues several times. You could label me stubborn, but why racist?
Actually I expected to discuss the cultural side of the conflict, but of course, the conversation quickly jumped into a racist discussion, which I wanted to avoid from the very beginning. Be careful! Is it classified?
This diary and your comments on it are full of sweeping generalizations and negative stereotypes about an oppressed minority. It sounds to me, and apparently to several other people who have commented on this thread, that you are arguing that discrimination against an entire ethnic group is justified because some members of that group do things you don't like.
If that is not what you mean, perhaps you need to clarify your statements a bit further.
I just had a discussion with my friends about this thread, who comforted me, saying that it is always hard to explain the problem with gypsies to a foreigner; over lunch they asked me to illustrate to you (and the readers) the situation with a specific example, which they reminded me of.
Have you seen Dave Chapell's show, he's a black American comedian, who likes discussing just such issues. He says, "Now, there are niggers and black people. I can't stand the average nigger that tries to get away with crimes, because that gives black people a bad image."
Do you now understand how Bulgarians perceive the Roma? We can't stand those who steal, but we accept the ones that don't. The average Bulgarian is not a racist, but an extreme patriot, something typical for the Balkan nations. Be careful! Is it classified?
If I am robbed by someone with blue eyes, it does not make it OK for me to despise all people with blue eyes. If I see my fellow citizens discriminating against innocent blue-eyed people, it is my responsibility to say something.
Do you now understand how Bulgarians perceive the Roma?
I never had a problem understanding that. What I don't understand is why you would defend it, instead of trying to change it.
We can't stand those who steal, but we accept the ones that don't.
It doesn't sound to me like that is true.
And what I am trying to say to you is that no matter what, it is not OK to demonize an entire people.
Never meant otherwise, that's why I created this discussion. If I didn't care for the attitude towards Roma, I wouldn't discuss it. Now I am concerned that international viewers of the discussion automatically took the side of the minority, which is extremely disturbing.
I want to change the way Bulgarians threat people who look like Roma. Some don't have a problem with that - most Bulgarins engage in helping Roma children in foster homes and really like it (and there are mostly Roma children there). But I would never acquit anyone who resides in Bulgaria and doesn't play by the rules, which all the others have to follow (not breaking the law, paying taxes, etc.). If the Roma want Bulgarian citizenship, then they are expected to follow the law, just as the rest of us.
We can't stand those who steal, but we accept the ones that don't. It doesn't sound to me like that is true.
As I said in my replies, we own a shop and trade with Roma, because some of them travel outside Bulgaria and act as dstributors. Additionally, there are famous Roma orchestra, which are great. There are small Roma firms as well. But you won't see big Roma bosses (except the so called "barons", basically Roma mafia bosses) or Roma salesman. I am surprised that even international companies refuse to hire Roma, even though they don't have a long history in Bulgaria (and hence be culturally biased). Be careful! Is it classified?
