As for the statistics that "show that there are more criminals from the Roma population" the only statistics I saw in the other thread on this topic still do NOT justify making blanket statements about all Roma (or even all Roma who live in segregated neighborhoods) as you do repeatedly.
I've unfortunately learned very little usable information from your replies other than the fact that at age 10 you were punched and robbed by someone you identified as Roma, that your family store was robbed three times in 2 years by people identified as Roma (I'm sorry you and your family where the victims of these crimes), that you happily accept the presence of the few "educated, well-dressed and well behaved gypsies" you've meet but that based on the few negative experiences you've had and the news reports you've read or watched about violence in ghettos you would never walk through a Roma neighborhood as Dodo described doing without incident and you feel comfortable making many blanket statements about the Roma as one monolithic group.
The main information you provide is that many Bulgarians have a negative view or fear, as you describe yourself having, of the Roma. This is relevant information but none of this tells me much about the Roma or the realities of why the ghettos you describe exist and it seems to discount the problem of discrimination against the Roma.
Blanket statements such as the ones below don't tell me much except that you are comfortable making uninformative generalizations about a group of people: "they don't fit in the society." "gypsies live off social welfare because they have a lot of kids and don't pay taxes, as they are unemployed." "They don't even pay for their electricity" (I understand there was some conflict over electricity distribution to a ghetto area but you describe it out of context and as if no Roma paid for electricity. See the EU report below for more on the discrimination by the electricity company) "government officials or representatives are afraid to go in their ghettos" (I don't doubt there is fear since you yourself are afraid but how do people get a welfare payment if they never deal with government officials?) Roma who live in apartment buildings "usually don't cause any trouble, because they want to be friendly with their neighbors." "gypsies with Bulgarian citizenship can't even speak the official language of the country"
In one of your replies to The Stormy Present you asked "Bulgaria is expected to enter the European Union in 2007 or 2008. Are other European countries OK with this treatment of gypsies?" The answer is NO! This is in fact an issue raised in the European Union Commission's Bulgaria: Comprehensive Monitoring Report 2005 (pdf). As the report explains "The Commission, as guardian of the [EU] Treaties, is now monitoring Bulgaria's preparations for accession in order to ensure that this country can meet all the duties and requirements of a fully-fledged Member State by accession, in the interest of both current Member States and Bulgaria. This Comprehensive Monitoring Report presents the results of the Commission's assessment of Bulgaria's preparations for accession." It's not a pretty picture when it comes to the treatment of the Roma (note that even the electricity issue is brought up in the report in a way that provides a very different perspective on the battles for electricity you mention). For more on the EU commission's 2004 and 2005 assessment of the treatment of the Roma in Bulgaria there is a good review here
The effective and sustainable integration of Roma remains an issue of major concern. The efforts made by Bulgaria to implement the "Framework Programme for Equal Integration of Roma into Bulgarian Society" lack sufficient strategic approach, coordination and finance. This Framework Programme is still in its early stages, and related documents and action plans adopted by the government remain largely on paper.
Key reforms in combating discrimination in education, healthcare and housing are still outstanding. A long-term action plan in line with the "Decade of Roma Inclusion 2005-2015" (launched in Sofia in February 2005) has been drawn up and contains objectives in the areas of education, healthcare, housing, culture and discrimination. Bulgaria needs to to ensure that this action plan is properly resourced and implemented.
A number of cases were filed under the Protection against Discrimination Act, and in three cases the Sofia Electricity Supply Company was found guilty of treating Roma customers unfavourably in relation to non-Roma customers. An independent Commission for Protection against Discrimination, as envisaged by the law, was established in 2005 (see also Chapter 13 Social Policy and Employment).
The strategic documents and programmes on the educational integration of children from the Roma minority have not significantly changed the situation on the ground. Initiatives aimed at attracting and keeping Roma children in school (e.g. free lunches, subsidised textbooks, teacher assistants in schools with Roma students, bussing programmes) were largely unsuccessful. Although an Agency for Educational Integration of Children and Pupils from Ethnic Minorities has been established, this body has not succeeded so far in fulfilling its main function, namely the coordination of efforts made by different ministries to enhance the educational integration of children from minorities. As already outlined in the 2004 Report, a number of Roma children of mainstream mental ability still continue to be placed in special schools following poorly controlled assessments.
Many Roma continue to be excluded from access to healthcare services. A Health Strategy for Disadvantaged Members of Ethnic Minorities and an associated action plan were adopted in September 2005. The elaboration of this strategy and action plan forms an important part of the Framework Programme for Equal Integration of Roma into Bulgarian Society. Although several initiatives are ongoing with international donor support, a long-awaited National Housing Strategy for Roma has not yet been adopted.
A number of national employment programmes aimed inter alia at addressing long-term unemployment amongst Roma have continued. However, in order to increase their effectiveness, these initiatives need to be further combined with complementary measures such as family counselling and professional assistance in searching for a job.
In spite of the establishment of a new National Council for Cooperation on Ethnic and Demographic Issues, the administrative capacity of the State structure dealing with minority issues continues to be weak. The body is not yet fully operational, and it remains to be seen whether the chosen structure will provide for the powers necessary for effective minority rights protection, including enhanced political influence and staffing. In particular, attention should be paid to ensuring sufficient consultation with Roma representatives with a view to developing and implementing the State policy on the integration of Roma.
The Bulgarian authorities should demonstrate, at all levels, that the country applies a zerotolerance policy on racism against Roma or against any other minority or group and that this policy is effectively implemented.
pdf source.
There continue to be reports of cases of ill-treatment by law enforcement officials, including excessive use of firearms and force by the police. Reports indicate that ill-treatment of persons in custody disproportionately affects Roma. In a number of cases, investigations of complaints of police ill-treatment were not prompt, thorough and impartial. pdf source.
I agree with Dodo, why are you trying to justify discrimination and racism against the Roma? It's one thing to explain the complexities of the situation in Bulgaria, I always find that makes issues more interesting and it's one of the reasons I read your diary in the first place, but it's an entirely different approach to make one blanket statement after the other about the Roma. It doesn't provide much useful information, except to tell me about the prejudices you've internalized.
Ok, I explained several times that I tried not to turn this conversation into a racist one, even after I was easily dismissed as racist. The purpose of this diary was one and one only - to discuss the point of view of most of the Bulgarians and to find a way to change the situation. And here I am, like any Bulgarian, who can't stand the part of the Roma population which are stealing, ready to discuss, and I getting only flame. You should understand that this is my valid point of view (and for most of the Bulgarians), just as your point of view is important to you.
About calling my statements (several times) "blanket statements". Do you expect me to back up every word I say with numbers? Or maybe you don't trust my words, though we see the few other Bulgarians on this thread commenting the same news items I mentioned and having similar experience with gypsies?
You quoted some of my statements:
"they don't fit in the society."
"gypsies live off social welfare because they have a lot of kids and don't pay taxes, as they are unemployed."
"They don't even pay for their electricity" (I understand there was some conflict over electricity distribution to a ghetto area but you describe it out of context and as if no Roma paid for electricity. See the EU report below for more on the discrimination by the electricity company)
"government officials or representatives are afraid to go in their ghettos" (I don't doubt there is fear since you yourself are afraid but how do people get a welfare payment if they never deal with government officials?)
Roma who live in apartment buildings "usually don't cause any trouble, because they want to be friendly with their neighbors."
"gypsies with Bulgarian citizenship can't even speak the official language of the country"
About the unusable information from my replies - was it really that unusable, since you needed a paragraph to mention just the points from my diary, let alone those from my comments? Should I back it up with numbers? Please explain, I will try to be more clear and provide more information, though that might mean translating from Bulgarian.
but none of this tells me much about the Roma or the realities of why the ghettos you describe exist and it seems to discount the problem of discrimination against the Roma
About the Roma treatment in Bulgaria and how the other countries are not OK with it - what's the standpoint for Romania, where there are even more gypsies and the same attitude? How come did Hungary enter the EU, with such a horrible attitude toward gypsies?
It is true that gypsies are treated badly; what I am saying is that there are usually different documents and analyses assessing all the problems of a country about to enter the EU, discussing the differences of that state, compared to what is accepted as "normal" by the already member states. Bulgaria and Romania will enter the EU, just as Hungary did and no one is going to stop for a second, saying... "oh, we forgot how they treated the gypsies" - which is troubling. But will politicians wait for years to come, so Bulgarians and Romanians accept the gypsy culture? Will Hungary be forced to leave the EU for the treatment of the Roma population? Most likely not.
Right now it's far more horrifying, for the EU, that the Juridical branch in both Bulgaria and Romania is highly politicized, and until that is fixed, the countries won't enter the EU.
Btw, Leader mentioned a few posts down - just wait for Bulgaria and Romania to enter the European Union, and see how all the gypsies will move to the big European countries. The same will be with all the Turks, who live in Turkey, but hold a Bulgarian citizenship, as well. Germany already knows perfectly well what will happen.
Actually, I have a Moldovian friend, who is desperately trying to get a Bulgarian citizenship, because this will guarantee him free access to the EU - and this is the case with many of my East European friends. Be careful! Is it classified?
What I don't agree with, as well, is that Roma will go into the European Union with Bulgarian passports and the Western newspapers will go "Crime levels increased, because many Bulgarians pick pocket the poor Westerners, which didn't expect the shock of the East European reality." The thieving gypsies give a bad name to other gypsies, which are trying to work and pay their taxes as well! Be careful! Is it classified?
Ok, so if that's what you're worried about, what solution do you propose? (My solution would be to pay less attention to Western right-wing tabloids)
As I said earlier "It's one thing to explain the complexities of the situation in Bulgaria, I always find that makes issues more interesting and it's one of the reasons I read your diary in the first place, but it's an entirely different approach to make one blanket statement after the other about the Roma."
I'm interested in a discussion if we can move it away from blanket statements that don't help us find solutions and, despite your desire not to move the discussion in that direction, only sound like prejudices.
So what's your solution to the problems you perceive: wait for EU membership and hope the Roma leave Bulgaria and Romania and "move to big European countries"? Somehow mass migration seems quite unlikely to me despite the fears of the polish plumber invasions some Western European politicians would like voters to believe. What are your suggestions?
...despite your desire not to move the discussion in that direction, only sound like prejudices.
Read what pavlovska said near the end of the discussion - I like how the gypsy population is helping itself in Macedonia - they have the desire to integrate.
About "hordes" of gypsies invading Europe - my personal bet will be that about a third of the Roma population will directly move out. Be careful! Is it classified?
I am presenting the point of view of most of the East Europeans. ... my personal bet will be that about a third of the Roma population will directly move out.
Aid workers estimate that 90-95 percent of Roma in Bulgaria are chronically unemployed, hampered by illiteracy and prejudice, and the overall economic slump. There are some Roma "barons," flashy dressers in shining luxury sedans, scorned by their kin for their aloofness. And about 117 Roma non-governmental organizations distribute international aid, often to little effect. Nor are Roma political leaders setting a good example, engaged as they are in ego-polishing and personal wars.
