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This is not the Czech Republic, where gypsies don't have a Czech citizenship.

The Roma population hold Bulgarian citizenship and should obey the laws of Bulgaria, just as Bulgarians and Turks. Or maybe Turks should follow the Turkish laws, even though if you are in Bulgaria.

Since when does not having citizenship release people from following the law of the land? And you accuse others of making absurd statements?

Also, what do you mean when you say that gypsies in the Czech republic don't have citizenship? That all gypsies in Czechia are actually Slovak?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 08:00:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since they don't have a Czech passport, they are not even treated equally as other Czech citizens. They are basically guests of the country and have less rights, for what I've read (and no, they are not Slovaks either :)).

Actually to be allowed to hold a Czech citizenship, a person must have a clean criminal record in the last five years, and must have lived on the territory of the Czech Republic for same duration. Since most gypsies were OK only with the second requirement, they were never allowed to become Czech citizens. But nobody told them, that the Czech government changed the requirements recently and now only requires a person to have lived on the territory of the country for the last five years.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 04:07:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now this again shows you don't know much about what you are talking about. So I have to present the real Czech situation.

During WWII, the Nazis exterminated most Czech Gypsies. Most Czech Gypsies of today were moved there (most of them forcibly, and often on the place of deported Sudeten Germans) from Slovakia. Many of them lived in workers' housings at factories, which later didn't count as permanent residence, or in special settlements where they weren't registered. Children given to foster parents or foster homes were without permanent residence permits, too.

After the break-up of Czechoslovakia, the new citizenship law was designed (consciously, see in this article) to disenfranchise Gypsies (and prevent further immigration from Slovakia) by exploiting the previous circumstances and more, all the while speaking about "Slovakians". Applicants had to have proof of residence, the five-year crime-free record, and renouncement of Slovakian citizenship (which many of them didn't have in the first place, having been born to "Slovakian" Gypsy parents in the Czech Republic).

Worsening the problem were practical issues like the legal inexperience and lack of counsel of most Gypsies, and local courts who interpreted laws their own even worse way (a worst example: one "Slovakian" Czech Gypsy was forced to go to Slovakia to bear her child; but also examples of rewoking citizenship).

As a result of these combined reasons, in 1993, about 100,000, that is half of Czech Gypsies became stateless.

Now this was not the end of the story. Major amendments were forced on the law: in 1996, by when about 20,000 stateless Czech Gypsies remained, the crazy 5-year-no-crime-record rule (which was valid irrespective of seriousness of the crime - stealing a bread four years ago was a valid reason for exclusion, being sentenced for murder six years ago was not) was eased to a case-by-case basis. In 2000, by when about 10,000 stateless Roma remained thanks to increased NGO activity, the law was finally changed big-time by allowing declaration of pre-1991 residence. Only those who moved away since or sought asylum elsewhere remain excluded.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 08:07:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, in effect, there are still gypsies within the Czech state, without citizenship, right?

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 12:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Read my last sentence again.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 02:53:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you provide numbers on how many are left in the Czech state without citizenship and how many have citizenship?

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a quick reply, don't have time for more now.

As explained, almost none were "left" in the Czech Republic after 2000. However, many of those excluded because they moved into other countries in the meantime (most of them to Slovakia) moved back. For those moving away, I found figures of 20,000-25,000, or 10% of the total; for total Roma immigrants from Slovakia (Czech Romas moving back + Slovakian Romas newly moving) I saw similar numbers. What I'm not clear about and would have to look up (as can also be seen from the termination of my account in 2000) is whether further changes have been made to the law around the time of the Czech Republic's joining of the EU.

BTW, last time I forgot to note two further nasty hurdles in the original law designed to hit poor Gypsies: the hefty legal prices involved ($300 per person) and the requirement of dual parental approval for children's applications (hitting both children of divorced and children in orphanages).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 12:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was really useful, thanks. And the laws you mentioned - really looks like gypsies will be hurt mostly. Do you think the laws were passed as they provide good anti-Roma policy or maybe they just weren't well designed?

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 01:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the first post, I put in a link to an article on the issue which includes actual quotes pointing to conscious intent. On the other hand, some lawmakers might have more thought about immigration of Roma from Slovakia than resident Romas, and the fate of the children in orphanages might well have been due to bad design. (This was remedied in the 1996 amendments.) Then again, the behaviour of the local courts that applied the lawwas most consciously racist.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 01:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should add: the circumstance that various NGOs and Gypsy organizations and international monitoring organisations pointed out the problems and demanded the repeal or radical change of the law from day one (e.g. from 1993), but change came slowly, implies that even if some effects weren't intended, they were welcomed by lawmakers. (Current President Klaus's party even voted against the 2000 amendments.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 05:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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