I agree with Dodo, why are you trying to justify discrimination and racism against the Roma? It's one thing to explain the complexities of the situation in Bulgaria, I always find that makes issues more interesting and it's one of the reasons I read your diary in the first place, but it's an entirely different approach to make one blanket statement after the other about the Roma. It doesn't provide much useful information, except to tell me about the prejudices you've internalized.
Ok, I explained several times that I tried not to turn this conversation into a racist one, even after I was easily dismissed as racist. The purpose of this diary was one and one only - to discuss the point of view of most of the Bulgarians and to find a way to change the situation. And here I am, like any Bulgarian, who can't stand the part of the Roma population which are stealing, ready to discuss, and I getting only flame. You should understand that this is my valid point of view (and for most of the Bulgarians), just as your point of view is important to you.
About calling my statements (several times) "blanket statements". Do you expect me to back up every word I say with numbers? Or maybe you don't trust my words, though we see the few other Bulgarians on this thread commenting the same news items I mentioned and having similar experience with gypsies?
You quoted some of my statements:
"they don't fit in the society."
"gypsies live off social welfare because they have a lot of kids and don't pay taxes, as they are unemployed."
"They don't even pay for their electricity" (I understand there was some conflict over electricity distribution to a ghetto area but you describe it out of context and as if no Roma paid for electricity. See the EU report below for more on the discrimination by the electricity company)
"government officials or representatives are afraid to go in their ghettos" (I don't doubt there is fear since you yourself are afraid but how do people get a welfare payment if they never deal with government officials?)
Roma who live in apartment buildings "usually don't cause any trouble, because they want to be friendly with their neighbors."
"gypsies with Bulgarian citizenship can't even speak the official language of the country"
About the unusable information from my replies - was it really that unusable, since you needed a paragraph to mention just the points from my diary, let alone those from my comments? Should I back it up with numbers? Please explain, I will try to be more clear and provide more information, though that might mean translating from Bulgarian.
but none of this tells me much about the Roma or the realities of why the ghettos you describe exist and it seems to discount the problem of discrimination against the Roma
About the Roma treatment in Bulgaria and how the other countries are not OK with it - what's the standpoint for Romania, where there are even more gypsies and the same attitude? How come did Hungary enter the EU, with such a horrible attitude toward gypsies?
It is true that gypsies are treated badly; what I am saying is that there are usually different documents and analyses assessing all the problems of a country about to enter the EU, discussing the differences of that state, compared to what is accepted as "normal" by the already member states. Bulgaria and Romania will enter the EU, just as Hungary did and no one is going to stop for a second, saying... "oh, we forgot how they treated the gypsies" - which is troubling. But will politicians wait for years to come, so Bulgarians and Romanians accept the gypsy culture? Will Hungary be forced to leave the EU for the treatment of the Roma population? Most likely not.
Right now it's far more horrifying, for the EU, that the Juridical branch in both Bulgaria and Romania is highly politicized, and until that is fixed, the countries won't enter the EU.
Btw, Leader mentioned a few posts down - just wait for Bulgaria and Romania to enter the European Union, and see how all the gypsies will move to the big European countries. The same will be with all the Turks, who live in Turkey, but hold a Bulgarian citizenship, as well. Germany already knows perfectly well what will happen.
Actually, I have a Moldovian friend, who is desperately trying to get a Bulgarian citizenship, because this will guarantee him free access to the EU - and this is the case with many of my East European friends. Be careful! Is it classified?
What I don't agree with, as well, is that Roma will go into the European Union with Bulgarian passports and the Western newspapers will go "Crime levels increased, because many Bulgarians pick pocket the poor Westerners, which didn't expect the shock of the East European reality." The thieving gypsies give a bad name to other gypsies, which are trying to work and pay their taxes as well! Be careful! Is it classified?
Ok, so if that's what you're worried about, what solution do you propose? (My solution would be to pay less attention to Western right-wing tabloids)
As I said earlier "It's one thing to explain the complexities of the situation in Bulgaria, I always find that makes issues more interesting and it's one of the reasons I read your diary in the first place, but it's an entirely different approach to make one blanket statement after the other about the Roma."
I'm interested in a discussion if we can move it away from blanket statements that don't help us find solutions and, despite your desire not to move the discussion in that direction, only sound like prejudices.
So what's your solution to the problems you perceive: wait for EU membership and hope the Roma leave Bulgaria and Romania and "move to big European countries"? Somehow mass migration seems quite unlikely to me despite the fears of the polish plumber invasions some Western European politicians would like voters to believe. What are your suggestions?
...despite your desire not to move the discussion in that direction, only sound like prejudices.
Read what pavlovska said near the end of the discussion - I like how the gypsy population is helping itself in Macedonia - they have the desire to integrate.
About "hordes" of gypsies invading Europe - my personal bet will be that about a third of the Roma population will directly move out. Be careful! Is it classified?
I am presenting the point of view of most of the East Europeans. ... my personal bet will be that about a third of the Roma population will directly move out.
Aid workers estimate that 90-95 percent of Roma in Bulgaria are chronically unemployed, hampered by illiteracy and prejudice, and the overall economic slump. There are some Roma "barons," flashy dressers in shining luxury sedans, scorned by their kin for their aloofness. And about 117 Roma non-governmental organizations distribute international aid, often to little effect. Nor are Roma political leaders setting a good example, engaged as they are in ego-polishing and personal wars.
