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I am still trying to get my head around this fragment and the two paragraphs that follow:
There is a reason why gypsies are hated and the reason is their specific cultural heritage and the recent history of Bulgaria. During the communist regime, which lasted for about 45 years and ended in 1989, the gypsy community was strongly oppressed by the Todor Jivkov government.
Basically, no reason at all is given why gypsies are hated, and instead institutionalised harassment of gypsies over the 45 years of communist rule are described, as well as the fact that, when the economy crashed in the transition to capitalism, gypsies were left out of jobs and education and had to fend for themselves 'the easy way'.

Now, I would like to challenge especially the notion shared by the diarist and some commenters that petty crime is 'an easy life'. If it is so easy, why don't we all engage in it?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 07:24:42 AM EST
Because Gypsies Are Different (Or Just Their Culture, I Am Not Racist).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 08:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am totally willing to accept that the root of the Gypsy problem is the tension between a nomadic and a sedentary culture sharing the same space. What I find nothing short of amazing is that Europe is still grappling with the issue in 2006, at least 600 years after gypsies first set foot on the continent.

There is "a Gypsy problem" but it's not Gypsies that are the problem.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 08:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting indeed. Do you see such a problem with black people anymore? And they arrived (actually "were arrived") after the gypsies.

Are most Europeans racists only when it comes to gypsies?

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 05:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can tell you there is quite some racism in Spain against all immigrants, but for a long time we could be in denial about it because Spain had no immigrants, and Gypsies, well, we're not racist, but the Gypsies are just a speacial breed of bad, bad people, aren't they?

It was the very insidious racism against Gypsies that made me not be surprised at all when recism against Eastern Europeans, Latin Americans, north Africans, black Africans and East Asians became more visible in Spain.

Look I am not a gypsy and I don't know any personally, but I can tell you that for the longest time the official position towards gypsies was that gypsies were not a separate ethnic group, but just Spaniards who had chosen to dress differently, speak differently, and have a different lifestyle. This is actually wrong: gypsies are a distinct people with a distinct language, culture and a nomadic lifestyle.

When a sedentary community's reaction to nomads is to enact vagrancy laws, you have a problem. You also have a problem when  society's idea of accomodating nomads is to offer them a house and a plot of land. On the other hand, a lot of Spanish gypsies are settled and have been for a long time, especially in the South, but segregation is quite real, and tensions between gypsy and non-gypsy neighbourhoods do occasionally flare up.

And to pretend there is no "problem with black people anymore" is an exaggeration, quite apart of the fact that the "problem with black people" was entirely about white people.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:07:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree on all points. As you say some are actually settled in and don't travel around the country - so why would they refuse a house and land (at least this happened in Bulgaria, they refused to work the land the government offered them).


And to pretend there is no "problem with black people anymore" is an exaggeration, quite apart of the fact that the "problem with black people" was entirely about white people.

Very well said, Migeru. It's about what the majority define as "normal" - in this case the cultural differences between the majority and the gypsy minority are too big and they get out of the predefined "normal".

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:19:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I gave no reason why they are hated, because I don't know why (I speculated it was because of a combination of history and culture conflicts). I wanted to have a discussion on exactly that, not throwing "racist" at each other, because it is so much easier.

On your second point - you consider petty thefts to be harder than working all day?

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 05:55:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You think a life of petty crime, living on the run, ans constant run-ins with the police is easier than a job? It wouldn't be for me, that's for sure.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:09:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the cultural difference I am talking about!

Oh, btw, Bulgarian gypsies are not exactly nomads, in the sense that they don't move around the country - they prefer to stay in their ghettos.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:12:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After decades of the government forcing them to stay in ghettos you'd think they would make the ghettos "theirs", wouldn't you? And seeing the attitude of the students in the American University, I'm not surprised if they actually prefer to stay in the ghetto.

I mean, why are they in the ghetto in the first place?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:16:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru, come on, now the university will get a bad name for supposedly promoting racism? That's absurd, I am actually open about this issue, just as my colleagues, and we want to discuss it. You won't see that with students from other universities in Bulgaria, it's simply not an issue (i.e. it's ignored, "gypsies are gypsies and that's that").

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My apologies: I did not mean to say the university promotes racism, but that attitudes can only be worse outside of the university, and I have seen plenty of "gypsies are gypsies and that's that" on this thread, too.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:34:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Knowing that they are hated but not knowing why is exactly what entrenched racism is about. Then we go and we rationalize our culture's racism with anecdotal evidence. That does not mean we're racist, but...

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:12:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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