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and link to dKos crosspost: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/30/85058/8481.

Noter to Migeru and others: this "statistical tip jar" is just to know that you read the story, found it interesting, and would like to read more on such topics in the future. It's just a way to know if I bore you to death with all these pipeline/gas/oil stories or not.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 08:57:49 AM EST
Speaking for myself, I am interested in your views on energy, particularly as they relate to Gazprom, though I wonder how much concern there should be that Russia could "get pushed onto the Iranian side."

Hostililty and hypocrisy is something Russia is accustomed to seeing from the West. I do not see any substantive economic or political alliance between Russia and Iran, not when Iranian-backed Islamic extremists continue to meddle in Chechnya.


"When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon." Thomas Paine

by Noel Guinane (noel at bloodandtreasure.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 10:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True, it's not an easy realtionship and, as I wrote, they are direct competitiors. But if we get Russia pissed so badly at us that they start talking about this, I do find it worrying. Of course there is certainly a lot of bluster in it, but as it seems to be in the interest of our media to believe that hype and make it even bigger, this could snowball badly, especially when underlying issues seem to be so badly misundersttod by everybody.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 02:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd like to understand why you find it worrying because it is possible I do not understand the situation so well.

From what I can tell, when Russia via Gazprom attempts to buy gas networks in Europe, it may legitimately claim a double standard when the Europeans block it, but the Europeans can lay claim to a similar discriminatory policy when Gazprom refuses to allow European firms to develop Russian gas fields, as it has done. Add to this Russia's recent attempt to shut off gas supplies to the Ukraine, using the "gas tap" as a pressure tactic, and the West's distrust of Russia seems justified.

I suspect Putin's position on Iran is not so benign. Even if it were, I do not think Russia's ability to broker a peaceful resolution is as strong as our media would have us believe.


"When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon." Thomas Paine

by Noel Guinane (noel at bloodandtreasure.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 04:08:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(just like France) is not claiming that liberalizing is better, he's only fighting for what he perceives are the national interests of his country in a consistent fashion.

Those that call for liberalisation, and go protectionist when it's on their turf, are just hypocrites, and Putin is right to point that out, and I wish French authorities would point it out more explicitly more often.

Blair says, I'm a liberaliser, I'm fine with foreign companies buying British ones, and you should be fine with foreign companies buying yours. Putin says: I won't open my market, but if you open yours, why wouldn't I take advantage of it (after all, it's to your advantage)?

(At least the Economist is coherent about this - they have always said that opening up British markets and companies was a good thing per se, even if it was not reciprocated).

Putin is taking advantage of the situation, but he is not inconsistent. Blair is inconsistent and hypocritical

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 04:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry: my first sentence should start with "Putin..."

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 04:58:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with your assessment of Blair, but I cannot see Putin getting into bed with Ahmadinejad nor how Russia can play a useful role in the negotiations with Iran.

I think it is a misconception to think that peace can be achieved through trade. Nations trade with each other in the hopes of making money. If a nation has aggressive ambitions, it will use the money it makes to fund those ambitions. Trading relationships are never enough to restrain it from aggressively pursuing its ambitions. As Konrad Adenauer said: "Trade is trade."


"When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon." Thomas Paine

by Noel Guinane (noel at bloodandtreasure.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 05:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am definitely not saying that peace can be achieved through trade. What I am saying is that if we alienate Russia on the gas side for stupid reasons, we may pay it in the form of less cooperation on the nuclear file. They don't care about Iran per se; they do care how they can use the leverage they have there for other gains with the west, or conversely to punish the West for other aggression by withholding such leverage.

It's all about tradeoffs, and we're adding to the negaotve ledge for Russia - for what I see as totalyl stupid and needless reasons, as Russia has no need and no reason to go in a gas war with their only client.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 05:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that it does not make sense to antagonize Russia, but am curious to know what cooperation Russia can provide when it comes to Iran and the nuclear file. Do you mean it could tell what weapons or parts of weapons Russian states have in the past clandestinely sold to Iran? Or that it could turn around and to spite the West suddenly sell it weapons grade uranium, running the risk that an Iranian nuclear or dirty bomb would be used against them, perhaps by Chechnyan terrorists?

I'd like a peaceful resolution to Iran and would like to know more about the leverage Russia has here.

"When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon." Thomas Paine

by Noel Guinane (noel at bloodandtreasure.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 06:37:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's just a way to know if I bore you to death with all these pipeline/gas/oil stories or not.

As a newcomer to ET, Jerome, let me tell you it is quite the oppposite. Ref this extract from today's Le Monde, an article by Eric Le Boucher :

Regardez simplement les événements depuis huit jours : les menaces s'accumulent - celle de l'Iran, celles non moins violentes de Poutine ; Chine et Etats-Unis causent seuls de l'avenir de la planète ; les organisations multilatérales prennent l'eau - le FMI s'interroge sur sa raison d'être, l'OMC va à l'échec ; l'Europe est au point mort ; le pétrole flambe ; l'euro regrimpe vers ses sommets. Mais la France ne voit rien, ne parle de rien, ne compte pour rien. Elle passe de la crise des banlieues à celle du CPE, du Clemenceau à l'affaire Clearstream.

"France sees nothing, talks about nothing, counts for nil. She goes from the suburbs crisis to that of the CPE, from the Clemenceau to the Clearstream affaire."

And he forgot those events which are shaping the future of our industry, right now, and which go almost totally unreported in our beloved media : Will someone tell me what is everyone's agenda in those very large manoeuvres between BA, EADS, Lagardère, Thalès ?

So, and this is valid for all those regular contributors to ET which I read with what sometimes amount to fascination - no, I will not name names - be they about technology, history, politics, economy : you will never ever bore anyone when you write eloquently about a subject you obviously master.

My 2 € cts...

by balbuz on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 11:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Le Boucher is the resident "reformist" in Le Monde. In recent times, he has been pushing relentlessly the story of France's decline, lack of "reform", rigidity, etc... It's become tiresome.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 02:18:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, Jerome. A very interesting read. The issue is very much on my "news agenda." For obvious reasons.

In a couple of days I'll be going home, where we do have the internet, but where this fact doesn't automatically mean more information.

Being "outside," I get to read a lot of alternative news on what is happening in Kazakhstan. When I'm "in," things I hear make me sick - they are so sugary and so not true (sometimes)...

Have a great summer. I'll try to visit every now and then. But with my work schedule...

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government -- Edward Abbey

by serik berik (serik[dot]berik on Gmail) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 11:28:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pipe lines..pipelines.. ay migeru.

Well Jerome.. One question.

How much reserves does Russia have? How many years can they supply Europe and Russia at the present consumption level?

Gas normally has a very sharp inmediate decline.. so is there any guess about it? Could gas be the fuel of transition for cars if no gas is used for electric generation (we will leave nuclear, coal and wind for it)? This is, how many year of reserves has Russia has in terms of tep.. or in other way, can it supply 50% of the present European energy consumption in gasoline for twenty years?

Well a subject for your next great diary.....that we always love.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 12:13:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They have about 200 bboe of gas reserves, i.e. about as much as Saudi Arabia has of oil.

At current production levels, they have more than 60 years of production. Europe only gets 20% of that production. Even if production and exports increase to some extent, I seriously doubt that any energy crisis will be tirggered first by lack of gas from Russia.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 02:21:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This kind of information is priceless...you know it.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 06:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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