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Félicitations for being published. As some have pointed out, next goal is the op-ed page!

On a different subject, I would like to ask you a question about nuclear energy in France and the consequences it has on security issues and international politics, as well as consumption regulation policy.

If i understood the little i read about energy, nuclear power, because its production  cannot be adjusted to meet demand quickly enough, cannot represent too big a share of the electricity production of a single country. It can only be producing the base consumption, around 50% of the total electricity consumed. Knowing, this, what are the consequences of france producing 78% of its electricity by nuclear plants?

I think that this excess capacity originates in wrong estimation of future needs: experts held true that energy consumption and growth grew hand in hand and therefore projected that consumption would be far above what it is today. That, plus the fact that they blinded themselves from new technologies [combined cycles for gaz-powered plants] made them overlook prospects for cheaper production and build far too many nuclear plants. Is this true?

Energy consumption is what energy production depends on. The myth of an electricity so cheap that really is free prevents the development of public policies against energy waste and  illogic usage [electricity for heating for exemple]. Electricity production is the result of a political choice: the same money could be invested in reducing usage with only good consequences. As it has been often put, the less polluting energy is the one that has not been consumed. Can that approach, reducing consumption and european energy intensity be used to wait for better technologies?


Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 07:52:36 AM EST
I forgot to mention security and international relations: i wanted to ask what would happen if, after a problem in a nuclear plant, the population turned againts nuclear electricity: how long would disengagement take?
For intl relations, i wanted to know what were the consequences of the EDF exports of the european markets, how EDF depended on these markets etc...
Thanks

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 07:55:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EDF owns London Energy, there you have a secure and hungry export market.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 08:00:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
they have an export market paid by generous citizens...
my underlying assumption is that that money could have been put to a better use.
That the state garanties electricity at a reasonable price for all is what i believe in. That the state sells what its citizens paid for i dont really agree to, even more where people can make money out of it.
To that you have to add the Kyoto protocol and the EU "pollution" certificates which allow energy companies to make money out of us consuming less. Which is not acceptable.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 11:25:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the beauty of nuclear power, the capital investments are so immense you can't backtrack.

If we have an accident there is no going back to coal for several decades, during which the population will calm down and start supporting nuclear power again.

This is what Olof Palme and the other Swedish politicians of the 70's thought, kind of "Field of dreams": build them and they can't go away.

And it worked! Despite TMI, Chernobyl and our anti-nuclear referendum more than 80 % of all Swedes yet again support nuclear power. :D

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 11:48:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Was their motivation to wean Sweden off fossil fuels permanently as a reaction to the 1970's oil shocks?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 11:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

It was partly an environmental decision, to improve air quality and save the remaining rivers from exploitation, partly an answer to the oil shocks and partly a way to guarantee cheap power to Swedish industry, which is probably the most electricity intensive in the world (steel and especially pulp require vast amounts of power).

The Swedish nuclear power program coexisted with the Swedish nuclear weapons program (of which Palme had been a strong supporter) but it was separated during the 60's when the Americans told us to stop playing with nuclear arms and guaranteed us enriched uranium (which is needed for light water reactors).

Earlier our program was based on heavy water reactors and domestic uranium but it was never much of a success. We built a really small combined heat and power reactor in a Stockholm suburb (which was probably meant to be used for manufacture of military plutonium) and then we fucked up a 400 MW heavy water reactor project. Just as the reactor was supposed to go online (after delays, cost over-runs etc) the engineers understood the reactor wasn't safe enough. Oops. Just a few years before the oil crisis, it was ironically converted to an oil plant, making the whole project even more of a farce.

Private industry woke the state from it's natural uranium dreams (called "The Swedish line") by ordering a light water reactor in front of the state's nose, and since then it's been light water reactors all the way.

We ordered three Westinghouse PWR's and nine domestic ASEA BWR's which will serve us into the mid 2040's.

Two of the smallest BWR's where recently closed due to pressure from the evil Greens but no more shutdowns are seen as even remotely realistic. Instead the nuclear industry is uprating the remaining ten reactors so forcefully (with the silent approval of the government (and the Greens)) that the new generation-capacity is greater than the capacity of the two closed reactors.

The closing of the two BWR's has cost the Swedish people more than €2 billion. Every time I see a Green I remind her of how many wind mills, trains and trams you can get for €2 billion. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 12:12:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The French nuclear plants are load following, that is, as power demand is reduced (during the night for example) nuclear power generation is also reduced. I don't know how clever this is from an economic point of view though. With nuclear capital costs very high and nuclear fuel very cheap it makes economic sense to run the plant at full flank around the clock.

On the other hand, France has a giant electricity export market in Italy and also some hydroelectric plants in the Alps that help manage demand. That is, they are used as peak load while the nuclear plants do all the base load (and also more than that).

I don't agree the French blinded themselves by avoiding gas plants. Gas plants carry heavy environmental and geopolitical costs (and lately also financial cost) which nuclear power avoids.

The argument about efficiency is interesting. Obviously conservation is a good thing. But in the end even the power used in a situation with great conservation has to come from somewhere, and then you are back at having to choose among the different kinds of plant.

So, conservation yes!

But first some mighty big reactors. :)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 11:42:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For the geopolitical argument, i don't think it is too important when considering gaz-powered plants. If there is a source of energy that we really depend on, its oil. So if dependance was the thing we were the most scared of we would try to cut that consumption.
As for gaz, since in Europe it comes from Russia, we have a single interlocutor that actually needs to sell it resources for money. Maybe scarcity, in Europe, will be what drives prices up, not politics.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 12:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, a kindred spirit!

Yes, yes, absolutely, mighty big reactors! Fast* reactors too :)

Throttling nuclear reactors works and, for a PWR design, doesn't radically change the thermal efficiency of the station as the hot source, the core, is maintained pretty much at a constant operating temperature/pressure, no matter the energy output. The ability to throttle is more a secondary circuit issue.

There are still a couple of problems for the core with varying power.

  • For fast power variations, the operator cannot use the primary coolant boration system but must rely on the control rods, shutting down some sections of the core while maintaining reactivity in other sections. There's nothing wrong with that but it makes fuel management even more complicated than it already is at steady power operation. It takes smart, experienced and rigorous operators to pull that trick (but do you want your nuclear power plant operators to be anything but smart, experienced and rigorous?)

  • Because of poisoning, as much of core must remain at a sufficient neutron density to burn the poisons and avoid accumulations that would make a fast power ramp-up very dangerous. If a core output is brought down too low, the core must be fully shut down and wait for the poisons to decay. Also, even you remain safely above the low power limit, it means that power cannot be ramped up in a snap.

  • If power throttling requires intermediate insertion of the control rods, the fuel management game becomes tridimensional. The fuel burn-up tends to be skewed towards the bottom of the core and fuel elements span the entire height of the core. So if a section of a fuel element is too burned up, the whole element must be changed. Not very efficient. Mitigated by fuel recycling though but it can shorten fueling cycles and, thus, reactor availability.

(*) Fast as in fast neutrons, of course.
by Francois in Paris on Fri Apr 7th, 2006 at 01:29:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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