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Le Canrd Enchainé also notes that at this point in time prior to the last presidential election (where he got 17% of the vote and got into the second round), Le Pen polled 8%. Today he polls between 15 and 18%.

I seriously do not see him NOT being in the second round again in 2007.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:18:23 AM EST
That was what I meant by unfun...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Le Pen huh? The only thing I know about him are pretty harmless anti-non-integrated-immigrant slogans like "France - love it or leave it!".

Is he a nuissance, a bad guy or a really bad guy?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The wikipedia article is pretty good.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. :)

So he is a populist anti-elite anti-immigrant clown (deprived of his EP seat for physically assaulting another candidate), with an impressive past (decorated veteran of the French paratroops in Indochina, Suez, and Algeria).

Probably a threat mainly to the socialists as he mainly attracts the votes of disgruntled working class people who don't like living next to Arab immigrants, (especially as he focus on being tough on crime)?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:15:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What a dreadful prospect!! Makes me wonder how large the Le pen vote would remain in the final round if the alternative was a candidate from the left this time.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And a woman from the left, at that.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly more than the last time :-(
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He could carry the winning margin, though, couldn't he? I guess he would have to have a PARTY that gets 20%, though, right? Is that possible?
by asdf on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:20:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I don't understand your question.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:27:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think asdf is in need of a diary on the French Presidential Election process.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:32:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Parties don't matter in the Presidential election. Le Pen could in theory finish first in the first round - but not in the second.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:15:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I meant to ask was, if Le Pen were to have, say, 20% of the vote, he could win in the first round but almost certainly not in the second round. Without a party that also has 20% of the seats, he would be effectively powerless.

The contrast being with the British system where the leader of a 20% party, elected himself in one particular district, can hold considerable power by providing a coalition with either of the other two 40% parties...

by asdf on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 08:58:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is correct, but Le Pen's Front National is considered untouchable and would be shunned in the National Assembly (as it is in the European Parliament), and so has no power as kingmaker.

In the latest parliamentary elections, the FN got 11% of the vote, coming in third place. Can someone explain how it happened that the FN has no seats (according to wikipedia) even though much smaller parties did get seats?

In the 2004 European Parliament elections the FN got 9.8% of the vote and 7 seats.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 09:06:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
THis is because the French system allots all seats by unitary circumscription (first past the post) rather than proportional representation. In 1986, Mitterand and the Fabius government introduced PR to offset expected losses, and it allowed the FN to gain seats in the Chambre; afterwards, the new RPR-led majority went back to unitary and its stayed that way ever since.

A second answer is the two-stage election; only candidates (within a circumscription) that win 10% in the first round advance to the second. As a result, FN candidates in the 2nd round are almost always in 3-way run offs; if it appears the FN candidate could win, "republican responsibility" often leads one of the two "major party" candidates to withdraw. However, these "triangulaires" are what made possible the 1997 Gauche plurielle victory; in 97 districts (IIRC) the left candidate won the 2nd round with less than 50% of the vote due to a "triangulaire."

by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 10:15:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So france introduced FPTP as a way to get rid of Le Pen... Is this also why the UMP has such a staggering majority in the Assembly?

IMHO, triangulating like that in order to shut the FN out of the parliament is counter-producing and only strengthens the FN as "anti-system" and "persecuted".

Better to let them have a small parliamentary group and make asses of themselves.

Single transferable vote would solve the problem without requiring that one of the "democratic" candidates withdraw. The mainstream left or right voters would vote for each other as second option and that would be that.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 10:20:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you misread desmoulins. FPTP was always the general rule. There was a PR experiment in the mid-'80s, but the "Gaullists" put the clock back at the first opportunity.

A reason small parties (the Greens for example) can get deputies is as a result of bargaining with a big party (PS for the Greens). The PS and the Greens are currently hashing this out for next year, and having a job agreeing on numbers. The agreement, of course, is of a coalition nature; the PS will give the Greens some safe seats in return for Green support elsewhere.

No party negotiates this kind of agreement with the FN.

It's a vexed question, whether it's better to collude to keep the FN out, or let them in. They have no respect for parliamentary government, and dynamite it on every possible occasion. And they are not asses. Had they maintained a regular parliamentary presence over the last twenty years, I fear they might be even bigger today than they are.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 04:17:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You also have to collude to allow small "desirable " parties in. It generally increases the base corruption level of the political system.

If instead of actually fighting to get the protest voters back in the fold, the mainstream candidates can just collude, they get comfortable and the problems that the FN capitalizes on fester. Then if and when the Fn breaks through the enclosure, it does so catastrophically.

It is quite clear if you're going to have single-seat constituencies you should use single transferable vote.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 04:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The contrast being with the British system where the leader of a 20% party, elected himself in one particular district, can hold considerable power by providing a coalition with either of the other two 40% parties...

There is no significant difference with the British system here: both are FPTP, and both could in theory keep even a 20% party outside Parliament. What makes Britain (or if I want to be more precise, England) different is two things.

One is the strong geographic differences in the vote, the strong local traditions behind one party or the other: a 15% national vote for LibDem could mean 50% vote in some districts.

The other is the reason why three parties with long-running traditions can exist: the historical two-party system of Liberals and Conservatives could be modified due to the dual impact of WWI and a massive expansion of the circle of voters, among whom Labour found a foothold.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 11:19:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the difference was that Blair is actually only elected by his local district, while the French President is elected by the whole country.

Bush or Chirac can be voted out by the nation as a whole, while still keeping their respective parties in office, but Blair can't be removed (except by his own small district) unless the country rejects the whole Labour party.

by asdf on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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