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Oh, come on.  I'm not aware of any Monarch being elected or impeached by Parliament (without radically changing the nature of the country's political system.)  And our President only has control over our "parliament" in so much as he has veto power and his job performance can influence his party's success at the polls.

A President my be the public face of a nation and go through the same cermonial protocol as Kings, but that's nothing to do with the way they govern or are held to account.  If this is what defines the nature of the executive, there would be no difference between Dictators, Military juntas, Kings, Presidents, PMs, Governors, etc.  Which is not the case.

As to the way in which we've co-opted aspects of monarchy, it is a matter of evolution.  Christians co-opted pagan holidays, but I think it is fair to say that pagans and Christians have very different world views.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, come on.  I'm not aware of any Monarch being elected or impeached by Parliament (without radically changing the nature of the country's political system.)
That's the one difference between a republican president and a monarch. And figurehead presidents don't get impeached. Prime ministers do [or are subject to motions of no confidence].

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:07:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apart from the Polish parliament electing kings there was also an elction-kingdom of Sweden. Or at least historians call it that. There was some element of election and acceptance but the process is somewhat hard to understand.

And speaking more of the modern age, the king of Sweden is often seen as perpetually running against a republic. If the royal family became unpopular and the peoples support waned, there would be a republic. With a figurehead president.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 08:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I realize I forgot about the Holy Roman Empire [with prince-electors] and the Visigoth kingdom of Spain [elective monarchy] among other germanic tribes with elected monarchs.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 09:08:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There have been elective Monarchies. Poland before it was partitioned in the nineteenth century had such a system.

There have also been republics with institutions not very different from monarchies. The English in their republican phase tried having a non-hereditary chief executive. Under the Instrument of Government (1653) the Council of State elected a Lord Protector for life. Later on in the Commonwealth the Lord Protector was given power to nominate an heir, which Oliver Cromwell did by selecting his eldest surviving son. The term of office of Lord Protector Richard Cromwell was short and unhappy.

Oliver Cromwell did not have the pretensions of the Stuart Kings to be an absolute monarch, but his practical powers were much the same. He also had the benefit of a more efficient state and a disciplined regular army to ensure that his power could be exercised more effectively.

The point I am trying to make is that when a country forms a new government it tends to be similar to the old one. The differences are either cosmetic or reactions to some aspects of the old system (absolute King and Lord Protector in seventeenth century England; constitutional monarch and President subject to checks and balances in eighteenth century America).

The evolution of Parliamentary government in nineteenth and twentieth century Europe, gradually made the head of government more important than the Chief of State.

There is a modern tendency, which France gave institutional form to by giving additional power to the Chief of State, to emphasise one person (usually the Head of government) more than the government as a whole or the Parliament.

The problem with the modern British executive is not the Monarch but the Prime Minister; whose power has grown, is growing and ought to be diminished.

by Gary J on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:20:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, come on.  I'm not aware of any Monarch being elected or impeached by Parliament (without radically changing the nature of the country's political system.)  And our President only has control over our "parliament" in so much as he has veto power and his job performance can influence his party's success at the polls.

Ceremonial Presidents, in contrast, can't be impeached (nor have the opportunity to give reason for), and are expected to be impartial once ascending to the job (just like constitutional Monarchs). The veto power (if they have it) is their sole 'real' power, though usually conditional: e.g. a Presidential veto effectively means that the law is sent to constitutional court or back to Parliament for a second vote.

Another thing the others haven't mentioned that ceremonial Presidents are usually (but not everywhere) chosen by Parliaments (joint sessions of two houses if there is a two-house Parliament), not popular vote. Proponets see the thus limited (and Monarch-like) legitimacy as something positive: the President would be less likely to want to usurp the PM's policy authority. View it as checks and balances.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 04:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did silly little over-simplified graphic representations of who gets to choose whom in the various systems:

US system with executive President:

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

(British, Dutch, Scandinavian, Spanish) parliamentary democracy:

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

Parliamentary democracy with Parliament-elected ceremonial President (Germany, Italy, Hungary etc.):

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

Parliamentary democracy with popularly elected weak ceremonial President (Portugal, Slovakia etc.):

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

Parliamentary democracy with both PM and strong (some executive powers) President (France, Poland, Russia):

Image Hosting by PicsPlace.to

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 05:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brilliant!

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 05:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Colman provided this BBC diagram of the Iranian system:


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you should definitely put this in a diary - maybe even as a front page story so that it can be put as a "debate" on political systems.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, will do so tomorrow morning, then also with some arguments for/against the various systems. (Now I should be in bed since an hour...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wait, does "government" mean the judiciary?

If not then I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of the American model.    

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It means the Cabinet.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's really interesting that one would equate
"government" with "cabinet."  We generally see the government as the sum total of the executive, legislative and judiciary branches.   Now I understand your problem with presidentialism.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:31:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is that interesting? It's common [non-technical] usage. We do way "executive" on occasion, but at least in Spain it sounds pedantic. Then again, when one says "the President will ask Prodi to form a Government" or "European heads of state and government" there is no ambiguity.

Americans will usually say "administration" where Europeans say "government", I now realize. In Europe I think "administration" is synonimous with "state bureaucracy" and not restricted to the Cabinet or the heads of national government agencies.

I must not have made myself clear. I don't have a problem with American, French, or Russian presidentialism. I do have a problem with the presidentialisation [i.e., personalisation of politics on the party leaders and of admninistration on the prime minister] of our parliamentary systems.

I suggest that you google "Blair presidential style" to see what I mean. It is entirely possible that calling this "presidentialisation" is a popular misinterpretation of the American system, but that's another story.

Dodo should really turn this into a diary so we can hash it out there.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Technically, the US Senate has to approve the nominations of US Cabinet members.  Although our pathetic Senate rarely doesn't approve someone because they hope to get free passes when their party has the Presidency.  Like many things, what the Constitution calls for and what happens in practice are not always the same.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 09:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Presidents facing hostile majorities in Congress sometimes can't get their nominees appointed [See Clinton and his attorney generals]. Even with a majority, an aggressive minority can use confirmation hearings to make a nominee politically untenable, though that would be rare.

In this connection, I am not entirely happy with DoDo's diagrams because generally there should be "proposes" arrows from the head of state down to the PM and from the President/PM down to the rest of the cabinet, and "approves" arrows up from the parliament to the PM and/or cabinet.

In many bicameral systems there are also members of the upper house who are not popularly elected [as was the case in the US initially]: senators "by royal designation", "nominated by the provincial/state government", "lifetime senators"...].

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 03:14:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not entirely happy with DoDo's diagrams because generally there should be "proposes" arrows from the head of state down to the PM and from the President/PM down to the rest of the cabinet, and "approves" arrows up from the parliament to the PM and/or cabinet.

Didn't I omit that only in the case of the American system?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:09:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No arrows into "PM" unless you intend them to apply to the entire triangle and not just to the bottom. Also, what's the difference between "appoints" and "nominates"?

Maybe the orange arrows pointing into the middle of the brack arrows?

It just didn't seem clear to me.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 07:14:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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