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Random, perhaps silly thought: how about requiring that any utility wanting to build nuclear power has to add an equal amount of renewable power production.
by MarekNYC on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 01:33:30 PM EST
And maybe requiring any utility building renewable power to add an equal amount of nuclear power?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 05:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't get it, do you? Renewables are fuel-less and non-polluting. This is not about being fair and balanced towards poor nukes.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 06:00:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am just being silly, just like the above quota system is silly.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 06:09:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, that quota system is silly.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 06:11:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm moderately pro-nuclear - that is I believe that it is preferable to fossil fuel plants considering global warming. I am strongly pro-renewable power, seeing it as preferable to nuclear. However, I don't think that renewables on their own are enough. I would like to see those preferences enacted as public policy - so, discourage fossil fuel plants, let's start building nuclear power plants again, but let's also strongly encourage rapid growth in renewable power.

As for markets deciding - all depends on how you regulate them, and energy markets have always been regulated one way or another, neutrality doesn't exist.

by MarekNYC on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 06:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We saw how well "electricity deregulation" worked for California.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 06:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not entirely up to date on that situation, but wasn't there other issues there too, on top of deregulation? A weak grid or to few power plants due to red tape or something like that?

Just a sidenote. Sweden and the whole of Scandinavia has a deregulated power market and it is seen as rather successful (in spite of power prices and power company profits constantly increasing...). Recently Sverker Martin-Löf, head of the powerful process industry (steel, pulp, chemicals, mining etc) lobby demanded a re-regulation of the power market.

Friends in unlikely places, yes?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 06:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A weak grid or to few power plants due to red tape or something like that?

No, that was the industry spin. In reality, there was enough capacity, but Enron and PGE gamed the system with devious tricks. For example, organising a simulataneous power-up of large industrial consumers. The California Energy Crisis was the largest scam in recent history.

it is seen as rather successful

By whom? By what standard? (This is not a retort, I don't know much about the situation there and am curious.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 06:39:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, by economists and pundits in a comparison with other de-regulations I guess.

The reason I think it has worked reasonably well is that there has been no need to invest in new capacity since the deregulation (in 1996) as demand growth has been slow and there were some overcapacity. And now when there is a need to invest the power companies will just uprate the nuclear power plants (by a whopping 1500 MW!), so there has luckily been no opportunity to build natural gas plants.

What people are complaining about is that Eon (owned by German interests), Fortum (owned by the Finnish state), Statkraft (owned by the Norwegian state) and Vattenfall (owned by the Swedish state) dominates the market entirely and use their market power to raise prices. This might be true. And since the vast profits of the state owned energy companies goes straight into the state budgets, they work like an indirect tax on electricity. Which means the states are not interested in doing anything about it all.

What the foolish economists are saying is that we should split the companies to increase competition. Thee result will only be that our national champions will be bought by foreign national champions and the oligopoly will continue.

Re-regulation is, imho, the only solution.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 08:24:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What people are complaining about is that Eon (owned by German interests), Fortum (owned by the Finnish state), Statkraft (owned by the Norwegian state) and Vattenfall (owned by the Swedish state) dominates the market entirely and use their market power to raise prices.

So the situation is like that of the German deregulation, apparently (except for no semi-monopolist fight against upsurging regeneratives).

Re-regulation is, imho, the only solution.

Agreed for the current macroproducers, though I'd also like major reform in the form of feed-in laws - that would create small local competitors.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 09:49:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The reason I think it has worked reasonably well is that there has been no need to invest in new capacity
Moral: don't privatize infrastructure: it won't work.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 04:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It might work with the correct regulation. Before deregulation we had many private power companies and it worked well, the French have privatized highways and it works quite well (doesn't it?).

Privatised infrastructure does not work when regulations are lax. Regulations must make sure there are enough investments. Our old power regulations demanded power companies invested a certain amount in new capacity and backup capacity etc (or really that they could guarantee there was only like one power shortage in five years or something like that, but in effect it means having to invest in capacity).

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 08:13:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These two quotes from the  second batch of Enron tapes say it all:

"What we need to do is to help in the cause of, ah, downfall of California," an employee is heard saying on the tapes. "You guys need to pull your megawatts out of California on a daily basis."

"They're on the ropes today," says another employee. "I exported like a f------g 400 megs."

"Wow,'' says another employee, "f--k 'em, right!"

"It's called lies. It's all how well you can weave these lies together, Shari, alright, so," an employee is heard saying.

The other employee says, "I feel like I'm being corrupted now."

The first employee adds, "No, this is marketing,"

"OK.''



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 09:30:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not really a fair comparison. The Californian "deregulation" situation had a lot of problems, including deregulation of the wholesale cost while retaining regulation of the retail cost, which made it impossible for the companies to balance demand and supply. And then when they figured this out, there was massive manipulation of the market. It was screwed up in practically every dimension and is not a good example of deregulation.

Although I agree that deregulation is not the right answer for public utilities...

by asdf on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 07:46:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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