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For Nuclear Power:
a) Nuclear power is "unlimited" --  in the limited sense allowed by De of "for the next couple hundred years" - agree
b) Nuclear power is "carbon neutral" -- It's hard to know exactly the cost of building the plant - studies seem biased either way. I'll say I mildly agree.
c) Nuclear power is "safe" -- strongly agree. Its track record over the past 40 years is incomparably better than all other power generation options, for the same TWh.
c1) Nuclear power is "safer to build than to import" -- mildly agree in that it is hypocritical to be against nuclear but import nuclear energy from the neighbors.
d) Nuclear power can replace almost every application of fossil power -- agree: electric transportation, even of the private kind, is very much possible. Water desalination also comes to mind. Agri-use is too small at this point to matter.
d1) Nuclear power can provide a reliable energy baseline: strongly agree: it already does.
e) Nuclear power is more cost-effective than renewables: this is a hard one, but the French experience does suggest that nuclear is cheaper than everything else when financed, owned and run by the State. So agree
f) New fission reactors solve the problems of "old, bad" designs. I don't know, would not want to bet on it. So disagree.
g) New developments are just around the corner that will make nuclear energy even more efficient and safe -- disagree: as above disagree
h) Just because incompentent nations or companies have built lousy plants doesn't mean that nuclear power cannot be managed properly -- agree.
i) There is no reason to fear nuclear accidents or technology more than other industrial process or externalised cost -- agree. There is an irrational fear of nuclear accidents. Coal deaths, like road deaths, are more undestandable and somehow less feared, it would seem.
j) The nuclear industry has been held back over the last 20 years by unfair fear, prejudice and activism -- mildly agree.

A) The energy and climate situation is dire and some urgent remedial action is needed -- true, but nuclear should not be the first option to pursue. It is the best of the not politically impossible options.
B) Nuclear energy is the only practical alternative to fossil fuels -- mildly agree. For now, nuclear is the least bad of the full baseload options.
C) Opponents of nuclear energy are scientifically illiterate, superstitious or ideologically biased -- mildly agree
D) Quality of life is strongly correlated with per capita power consumption -- this needs to be changed. This is a higher priority than doing more nuclear.
E) We have reason to be optimistic about steady and often radical improvements in technology -- I'll say I mildly agree, for my son..

Conclusion: I am French.

Against nuclear power:
a) Nuclear power is not safe -- disagree: the track record is excellent, and the only really bad accident, Chernobyl, came from a terrible design and pretty bad safety procedures. Compared to the dozens of failed dams, the hundreds of thousands of feaths from coal mining and burining, and the wars for oil&gas, it is magnificently safe. Renewables are likely to do better, though.
a1) Nuclear waste management is an unsolved problem and waste is toxic "forever" -- disagree. What's dangerous is not big, and what's bulky is not dangerous.
a2) Uranium mining is associated with poor worker safety, contamination of water sources, etc -- This has improved significantly, I understand. Still, agree.
a3) Safety is sacrificed to efficiency, accidents happen and then they are covered up -- disagree. Nuclear energy is certainly supervised much more thna other dangerous industries.
a4) No private insurer will insure a nuclear plant; if nuclear power were safe it would be possible to insure it -- agree This is State risk.
a5) Nuclear power is a stalking horse for the nuclear weapons industry -- I understand it depends on the technology chosen.
b) The public does not trust the reassurances of nuclear scientists and industry spokespeople, and rightly so -- disagree the public does not trust any industry anymore. So it's not really relevant
c) Uranium mining is a politically dirty business -- disagree it's a small part of the overall costs, so not sure how this is relevant. Should the mobile phone industry be blamed for Zaire's mess (for the coltan?)
d) Nuclear power is centralised, high/heavy technology, difficult to understand, and makes power consumers into helpless clients -- agree, but that's what makes it a great candidate for State-run, cost effective business. As to helpless clients, this sounds luddite.
e) Nuclear power is coupled to national security, nonproliferation, and other risks which inspire or require rigorous security which is inherently secretive and undemocratic -- disagree security need not be undemocratic. Just regulated by tough rules, which can be explicit.
f) Radiation is undetectable without specialized equipment and people cannot tell if they are being exposed, having to rely on the word of (untrusted) authorities -- (as Migeru) agree, but tell me how this is different from most chemical or biological contamination.
g) The health effects of radiation are insidious, as they can take years to develop and may include genetic damage which does not become visible until gestation and birth of children -- disagree thetrackrecord - long term - is noxw available. The worst incidents took place in the early years, and their consequences are still hotly debated.
f) Uranium is no more an infinite resource than fossil fuel -- true, but it is more abundant for now, and what about thorium?
g) Nuclear power is not cost-effective and benefits from hidden subsidies -- disagree French studies point to excellent prices with full cost accounting. This is linked to full State funding and running the industry.
g1) Old nuclear plants are very expensive to repurpose of clean up -- agree, but this seems true of any old plant.
g2) Nuclear power plants are costly to build, require expert personnel to operate, and have high complexity and high failure costs, all of which is expensive -- disagree Only the cost per kWh is relevant, not per plant.
h) Simple, cheaper, cleaner and less scary options than nuclear power include conservation, renewable energy and localised energy production -- strongly agree
i) Nuclear power is not a nimble solution for urgent problems (such as climate change or peak oil) as it takes 10 to 15 years to bring a nuclear power plant online. -- agree
j) Public protests have not been a decisive factor in holding nuclear power back, but rather inadequate return on investment and unmanageable risks -- disagree There has been a pall against nuclear. Referenda in several countries. Widespread hostility.
k) New miracle technologies either fail to deliver on their promises or incur significant externalities -- agree All technologies will have negative side effects when used on a larger scale. (So will wind, most likely)

A) The infinite growth predicated by economics is a myth, it is environmentally and socially unsustainable and does not guarantee progress -- agree Not specific to nuclear.
B) It is not physically possible for everyone on earth to lead a first-world lifestyle -- I don't know.
C) Nuclear weapons are utterly morally wrong -- disagree.
D) promises of technological miracles are a case of hubris and carry hidden costs -- agree but we are talking about existing technology.
E) anarchism/libertarianism:
E1) Authority should be resisted, and large centralised governments or corporations mistrusted -- agree but being a French technocrat I trust French technocrats to some extent.
E2) community/grassroots efforts and local organisation and provision of services should be more highly valued -- strongly agree
E3) government may fall, or policies change, leaving nuclear plants in the wrong hands -- disagree If we get to that point nuclear plants will be the least of our worries.
F) a decent lifestyle for the majority of people could be attained with common sense, reasonable frugality and fairness -- agree strongly.

Conclusion: I don't see nuclear as bad. It's much, much better than the existing large scale alternatives (on pretty much every metric: cost, pollution, global warming, direct or indirect deaths). It needs to come after a massive effort at conservation and renewable energies.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 03:50:39 PM EST
Thanks, Jerome, with a third data point I can draw a compass.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 04:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It needs to come after a massive effort at conservation and renewable energies.

yeah, well let's talk about it afterwards shall we?

if 'massive' is real, nor hype, then we wouldn't need nukes.

it's the bald assumption that the old model of energy use needs to be prolonged, or that we're all so deeply addicted and need to be indulged, that i find so weak and compromised.

meanwhile, back at the ranch, do you have any idea how much spin they're going to have to pull off to convince people that nukes are safe enough to roll out in the kind of numbers they want to? (la belle france notwithstanding).

people are more informed and smarter than they used to be... they see solar working, they see wind growing fast, that's the grain to go with, not against...

it takes 100 times more energy to repeat a lie enough times so the bozos believe, than it would take to use that pr money -flashy, greenwashing goebbelshit that it is - and use it to better educate people, starting with kids,( who intuitively 'get it' anyway), on how to value energy, and the chains of exploitation and corruption that have conspired to make the choking, toxic world they have inherited?

by even considering nuclear power as a possible solution, the lesser of two evils, we open the door to madness, hubris, and tragedy, as deanander has brilliantly expounded in this diary.

kc curie wants to be shown a realistic blueprint of how it could happen, and concedes its impossibility.

isn't this a tad defeatist?

if dogs are at the door threatening the children, do you chase them away with a stick, or open a poison gas canister?

that we even are having this debate here on a lefty blog, i find terrifyingly revealing of how deep the disconnect, that years of conditioning have wrought...

europe suffers from the same entitlement pathology as the usa, but a form modulated to be just genteel enough to shine in comparison.

still a pretty dull glow, imo.

keep the aspidistra flying!

ronald laing would understand...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 06:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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