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I do understand. These protests angered me so much the first time I heard about them years ago that they are responsible for lessening my opposition to nuclear power. The cledibility of the arguments put forward by opponents of nuclear energy who took part in these actions took a heavy hit in my eyes.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:03:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, then let's agree to disagree... I just can't see what you are outraged about.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree to give you a medal if you cause a nuclear waste spill.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you come with this sillyness the third time.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:14:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it is not silliness. Sabotage is not an argument I am willing to entertain.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is sillyness. No form of civilian protest can cause a spill, certainly not those you have seen on TV.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:18:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you put cement on the rails you can cause a derailment, can't you? Or if you cause a different train to strike the catenary you can just write it off as "collateral damage"?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:23:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now this gets really silly.

On the second, you saw me denounce it, and separate it from public protesters.

On the first, no no CASTOR can be hurt by a simple derailment, and you saw me explain that serious blockades by public protesters were preceded by warning groups.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(In fact CASTOR containers were marketed as indestructible, with videos showing them thrown from airplanes and hitting the ground hard, though later it was found that some hard operation can cause structural damage.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, one thought.

Maybe the coverage you saw of these German protests was just as sensationalist/biased/lacking in context as the US/UK coverage of the French 'riots' last year.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do understand.

On this specifically: said security arrangements were in place before the blocking efforts, and couldn't stave them off. So if you understand, why the opposed rhetorical question?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:08:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo, if sabotage is the measure, nothing should be done.

Could you run a railway if there were a determined group of SUV drivers ready to lie on the track in front of every train?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:12:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you reject sabotage per se, no civil disobedience is possible.

As for the second, of course not - question is which of these protests gains sufficient number of devoted supporters. (BTW, in Greece, private bus and lorry drivers did in fact protested against the upgrade of the Athens-Thessaloniki railway by leaving old buses/lorries in crossings.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is civil disobedience and there is sabotage.

That's the kind of protest that leads me to forget all solidarity with bus and lorry drivers.

Hey, how about we get someone to sneak into a reactor core and get a lethal dose of radiation to demonstrate that nuclear power is deadly?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How long do you continue to pretend that these protests could have caused a spill?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you reject sabotage per se, no civil disobedience is possible.

A question. How far should civil disobedience go before it is punished mildly, severely? Apply this to protesters who you disagree with e.g. anti-abortion activists.  Is putting glue in the locks of clinics ok, is blocking the entrance of clinics ok, is harassing women entering the clinics ok, how about employees...?   Arguing that such practices were equivalent to the mob enforcing protection money against businesses, the Clinton Justice Department sought to financially destroy the organizations that promoted the protests and their leaders. Any problems with that? How about applying it to those who organize the CASTOR blockades?

by MarekNYC on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:48:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, some definitions.

Do you consider a sit-in blockade sabotage?

What about people chaining themselves to the rails?

What about people climbing on the railcars?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 01:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
tut tut, those women chaining themselves to the houses of parliament, what can they hope to achieve?

i think they're setting back their cause, don't you?

they look ridiculous!

why don't they write letters to the times instead, or better make some nice flan for their man?

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue May 23rd, 2006 at 06:13:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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