Display:
I note that while in the European context, I see no maintenance effort-related advantage of microgrids (no big uninhabited areas anyway, more lines in sparsely populated areas due to wind power) and only limited grid loss benefits, and possibly unlike De, would favor the State to oversee grid design to ensure the capacity necessary for intermittance balancing; I would certainly favor if the fallback in case of European/national-level grid failure is dependence on the intermittance of local generation, rather than ensured region-wide blackout.

I further note that while European countries don't have much of a history of major power outages due to insufficient reserve capacity, they do have one due to grid failures in single lines that don't have much bypass - for example in the last few years, the big Italian blackout, and the Danish/southern Sweden blackout. A less centralised grid and peer-to-peer negotiation would possibly have made those crises much less serious.

A further argument about secrecy and trust, from my differing statist-socialistic point of view, is that while I'd trust the democratic-controlled State more than private companies or individuals  to provide/regulate infrastructure, the underlying assumption of democratic control is void when issues and facilities are kept away from public discourse by (necessarily) declaring them official secrets. A state-owned industry hiding security design flaws as military secrets is no better than an Enron-style company making fake power transfers from gas-fired plants for market manipulation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon May 22nd, 2006 at 05:58:46 AM EST
What's wrong with the EDF model. No power outages. Available surplus capacity. Strong ethos of public service. Well paid workforce. Well run compnay, technically speaking. And the cheapest power around.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 06:07:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the theme of secrecy and trust - what came out: SuperPhénix scandals, la Hague scandals (yet another reported just two days ago), Chernobyl fallout blackout, military connection, EPR. Did everything come out?

On the theme of reliability - while it is often argued in nuclear's favour that other countries import from France, this can be turned around: the "EDF model" is no more closed than the "Anglo-Saxon model" when applied either to the USA or the UK. The French nukes represent an overcapacity most of the time, which can be get rid off via Spain and Italy, while at other times, like summer drought, the home consumption is still ensured, which would have been a shortage in a closed system.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:17:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What SuperPhénix scandals? The reactor did not function as well as it should have, but that's technology issue, not a secrecy one, AFAIK. Then it was killed by a political decision when it was finally working.

What la Hague scandals? And don't give me Greenpeace or Sortir du Nucléaire sources, they are hardly credible. They cannot get over the fact that nuclear is genuinely popular in France and their resort to the worst kinds of stunts and spin and scaremongering with little regard to truth. The latest story about an airliner striking the EPR is especially irresponsible, as it contributes to the general state of fear which we otherwise criticise here so forcefully. They are responsible for enabling Sarkosy and consorts when they play with fears like this, especially when it's false.

Chernobyl fallout. Yes, that was stupid, especially as the underlying issue (the fallout) was trivial in France

Military connection? What do you have in mind?

EPR? What do you have in mind ?

I don't understand you last sentence.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 02:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And don't give me Greenpeace or Sortir du Nucléaire sources, they are hardly credible.

I am troubled by this wholesale dismissal of sources.  this kind of reminds me of the young US Marine interviewed on his way to Iraq...  "Aren't you troubled to be going over there to fight a war that was based on lies?" said the reporter.  "After all, we now know there were no WMD, and the Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11."  The young grunt shrugged dismissively:  "That's just what the liberals say.  I don't pay any attention to their bullshit."  (wtte).

if we decide that everything Greenpeace or SdN publishes is de facto untrustworthy, then we eliminate what is often the first or only reportage of investigative journalism and/or citizen complaint.  whom should we regard as trustworthy?  official government bulletins?  surely -- despite the relative excellence of the French bureaucracy and technocracy -- alert citizens should always keep an ear open to dissenting and oppositional voices.  even the French are not governed by angels :-)

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 03:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know. It is dismaying, but that's how I see it. I guess I'm with Migeru in his dialogue with DoDo on the Castor transports (see the other thread...)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 07:09:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, no, not that again!

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 07:13:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"I feel like... I feel like... Sing-mmmphghhh!"

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh, em, oh, where to begin... No, I best save most of my replies for the next diary, but this is too funny to let up:

The latest story about an airliner striking the EPR is especially irresponsible

You mean releasing the nuclear industry's own evaluation on an airliner striking a planned but unnecessary new nuclear plant is irresponsible? Not making that confidential? You have a strange concept of responsible.

the underlying issue (the fallout) was trivial in France

As the scandal is that there weren't even measurements, that's a tall claim.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri May 26th, 2006 at 01:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it depressing that you promote a terrorist attack with an airplane as something we should worry about today. It's scaremongering, and it plays to the politics of, well, you know.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri May 26th, 2006 at 02:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
facilities are kept away from public discourse by (necessarily) declaring them official secrets
I deny the necessity.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 06:20:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm. Knowing your libertarian/anarchistic leanings, I believe I understand why. Without attempting a politico-philosophical debate, I hazard two questions:

  1. Do you think it would be (practically/politically) possible to entirely separate the nuclear power industry from the military?

  2. What organizatorial-regulatory-ownership structure do you foresee for a no-secrets nuclear industry?


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:24:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. There are many countries using nuclear power that don't have nuclear weapons programs. What other association do you have in mind?
  2. Public ownership or, if private ownership, open to audit by a public regulator. Public entities open to public scrutiny through freedom-of-information legislation.


tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:30:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, concerning connections to weapons manufacturing, even the nuclear industries of many of the non-nuclear-power states are tied to the industries of those that are (all ex-East-Bloc power plants to the Soviet/Russian, the German to the French and British).

But I meant the national security considerations. While you would discount the bogeyman terrorist, the military will not only concern itself with terrorism, but a military attack, too. A centralised electricity generation system will already make a strategic asset, something the military will see necessary to secure (or attack). Furthermore, nuclear plants aren't just bigger targets than the average fossil fuel power plant: while the latter can be up and running half-repaired after the replacement of some pipes and welding-work (see Iraq or Yugoslavia), for a nuclear plant, the perfect replacement of a hundred essential parts would be needed in the best case, and it would stay a radioactive ruin in the worst case. So until we don't abolish armies and wars altogether, nuclear power plants will stay a national security issue.

Regarding 2, that's an answer about ownership and half of regulation, but what about organisation, and how would public regulation be organised?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri May 26th, 2006 at 01:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And even less likely that you can get convictions.  Today was a good day for the Criminal Justice System.  Not a great day, but a good one.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 06:17:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended Diaries
Clipping the wings of a judge
by Migeru - Feb 10
25 comments

Hunger March wins PR battle
by DoDo - Feb 9
3 comments

Romania: protests change government
by DoDo - Feb 8
6 comments

Murdoch - Outsourcing and Hubris
by ceebs - Feb 3
18 comments

Obama wins GOP Primaries (to date)
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 8
8 comments

Sarkozy: Enemies Ahoy!
by afew - Feb 10
6 comments

LQD: Unsustainable irrigation
by Melanchthon - Feb 9

Bristol Pound
by ChrisCook - Feb 7
14 comments

Recent Diaries
Sarkozy: Enemies Ahoy!
by afew - Feb 10
6 comments

Clipping the wings of a judge
by Migeru - Feb 10
25 comments

LQD: Unsustainable irrigation
by Melanchthon - Feb 9

Hunger March wins PR battle
by DoDo - Feb 9
3 comments

Obama wins GOP Primaries (to date)
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 8
8 comments

Romania: protests change government
by DoDo - Feb 8
6 comments

Answers to the Renewable Energy Consultation
by Luis de Sousa - Feb 7

Bristol Pound
by ChrisCook - Feb 7
14 comments

The Imitation Of Germany
by afew - Feb 4
31 comments

Strange Fruit
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 4
14 comments

Murdoch - Outsourcing and Hubris
by ceebs - Feb 3
18 comments

Mismatch with the Natural Gas Market
by Luis de Sousa - Feb 3
22 comments

The Future of Economics
by ARGeezer - Feb 2
191 comments

Desert Island Discs - Helen's distortions
by Helen - Jan 31
48 comments

Gorila
by DoDo - Jan 29
14 comments

Rail News Blogging #7
by DoDo - Jan 29
15 comments

Obama's State Of The Union: LQD
by Crazy Horse - Jan 25
74 comments

Democracy Technology
by gmoke - Jan 24
1 comment

The Hydrogen dream
by Luis de Sousa - Jan 24
49 comments

ET Paris Meet-Up 2012 (2 UPDATE)
by afew - Jan 23
113 comments

More Diaries...
Occasional Series