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From what little I know about the case and US law -- I deliberately avoided watching this -- it seems the jury handed down what I would consider the correct decision.  Rudi Mussolini -- err, Giuliani -- said he was "disappointed" that the jury did not produce a death sentence, but, frankly, a death sentence is what an al-Qaeda operative would want.  Let him play Drop The Soap for the rest of his life.

I just hope the prison serves pork, every day, so that we can drive him completely into insanity.  (And, yes, I know that's horribly insensitive to say, but I just don't care.)

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed May 3rd, 2006 at 09:08:41 PM EST
Let him play Drop The Soap for the rest of his life.

so does this imply approval of prison rape as part of the punishment process?  or is it meant to be humorous?  I hear remarks of this kind fairly frequently in the US, an acknowledgement of -- and apparently a tacit approval of -- the epidemic rates of sexual assault and rape in US prisons.  certainly a very cruel punishment, if unfortunately far from unusual.

fairly often one hears angry people, both on left and right, commenting in this vein on some much-hated figure who has been indicted or jailed... a kind of "now he's gonna get his" Schadenfreude.  is this -- as it sounds prima facie -- an endorsement of sexual humiliation and torture as legitimate tools of criminal justice?  and if so, was the "scandalous" sexual abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib really surprising (or an extreme contravention of US cultural norms)?  the notorious Graner had, one notes, been a civilian prison guard before setting up his little horrorshow at A.G.

does a majority of Americans at this time accept sexual assault and violation as a normal and even positive aspect of "correctional" facilities?

Website of a group working to eliminate prison rape

Testimony of survivors

Human Rights Watch report

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed May 3rd, 2006 at 09:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And it really does reveal a lot American psychology and the unstated knowledge we all share.  It is a very thin veneer of civilization that sits atop our criminal justice system.

The reality is that prisons are a business in the U.S. and most Americans buy into a vision that the guilty deserve anything they get.  If prison is harsh, well that's just the consequence of getting caught.

While there are many upstanding people in our criminal justice system, it is those that are closest to its ugliest details that are most often corrupted by it.  The detectives who start to believe that everyone is guilty of something.  The prison guards who decide their charges are just animals.  It tempts one to claim a greater power in their role.

My cousin is a homicide detective in a major U.S. city.  He told me the story of a case where a father or stepfather had beat a child to death.  The child curled up in pain and died on the floor.  Rigor mortis had set in when the police finally came.  The case was a slam dunk and the guy was sent away with a life sentence.  That wasn't enough for my cousin and his buddies.  They made sure to tell the prison guards what the guy had done.  They made sure to feed him to the animals and pay him back with torture.

To this day, I don't know what to think of that story.    But it is a story that would resonate with most Americans.  We are not a civilized country, yet.  Beneath our wealth and our veneer of manners lies a bloodlust and a love of violence that is not so far removed from an age of barbarism.

by Hoya90 (hoya90jmk-at-yahoo-dot-com) on Wed May 3rd, 2006 at 11:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Off on a tangent here, the intrepid Mr Marshall recently repeated something he said in 2004. He calls it the "Republicans' Bitch-Slap theory of electoral politics":

One way -- perhaps the best way -- to demonstrate someone's lack of toughness or strength is to attack them and show they are either unwilling or unable to defend themselves -- thus the rough slang I used above.

Sadly, I think we poor mammals first and foremost respect power.

(I think the "things to do in prison" discussion triggered my memory of this "not canine breeding related" use of the B-word.)


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sapere aude

by Number 6 on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 06:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One way -- perhaps the best way -- to demonstrate someone's lack of toughness or strength is to attack them and show they are either unwilling or unable to defend themselves -- thus the rough slang I used above.

imho a highly disingenuous way [not you Number 6, the guy you quote] of saying the obvious-but-kapu:  women are considered less than fully human in a male-supremacist ideology, thus to "treat someone like a woman" is the ultimate put-down;  also, in that ideology, the "correct" way to keep women and children in line is with physical bullying, hitting or threats of hitting ("discipline");  and notions of control and dominance even in the abstract are likely to be verbalised through metaphors of rape, prostitution, and battery.

To open handedly slap someone. Denote disrespect for the person being bitch slapped as they are not worthy of a man sized punch. Suggests the slap was met with little resistance and much whining. Urban Dictionary

Explananda -- I find the commenters' bewilderment about how this expression went mainstream a bit naive;  it went mainstream at about the same time that everything else about prostitution went mainstream, over the same period when yuppie college kids started going to halloween parties dressed as "Pimp and Ho," and yuppie moms started buying their 7 year old daughters "Porn Star" brand underwear.

Wikipedia -- different threads emerge here, one being that a "bitch-slap" is the kind of slap a girl would deliver, i.e. not a real punch.  the dominant thread however seems to be:  a slap delivered to a female by a dominant male, to shut her up or subdue her.  at any rate a highly gendered term.

could it be the author is baiting his [male?] readership by saying, "hey, the Republicans are treating you like women, you are their bitch, where is your pride?" -- without any reflection apparently on the degree to which his comment accepts and reinforces the same attitude to women?  kind of like Red-baiting, the ground assumption being an inherent ineradicable Taint (of femaleness, of Socialism) whose ascription would galvanise the readership into an  reflex of repudiation.  the original form of "if you're not with us you're against us" being, "if you're not masculine and tough then you're a girl, eee-yew, cooties."

"rough" slang in this case seems to me a euphemism for "pimp-speak" or "overtly misogynist cant" -- imho.  to my ear this is as regressive as e.g. promising to "work my new trainee like a n*gger", with many of the same implications of dominance, coercion, contempt.  would we laugh off such language as "rough slang" (with its connotations of rugged, if slightly oafish, masculine virtue) or recognise it as simply racist?  and does the writer resort to this "rough slang" in an attempt to retrieve, and flaunt, his own Liberal Masculinity in competition with the Rethugs who have recently attempted to corner the meme-market in Manliness (even if a wee bit o' padding is required here and there)?

I was discussing with an old friend -- old enough to remember, as I do, a time when prison rape was something that shocked and disturbed average Americans rather than being treated by tv comedians and ordinary people as a kind of national joke -- the curious shift in attitude to this abuse.  he said

I think there's also a class thing going on here; I remember listening to Kris Welch's phone-in show on KPFA in the early 80's, right after a couple of really loathesome child molesters had been caught, and hearing a caller, after carefully noting that she opposed the death penalty, go on to speculate hopefully that they might be killed by other prisoners. The moral cowardice of this, and the peculiarly class-based attitude--that we will let the lower orders do the dirty work while we keep our hands clean--still makes me mad. (Kris, a person I've always thought was basically dull-witted, supported the caller's sentiments.)

there may be some connection here to the economic draft, and the sending of lower-class boys (and a few girls) off to do the dirty work of Empire (the 'wet work' as the spooks call it with rather awful accuracy)...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 05:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you're right.

In the case of Marshall, I suspect he was probably tempted to use a very "direct" phrase that explains (to people familiar with his writing exactly what he meant) in a few short sentences - i.e. the blog format. He may have half regretted this later on as evidenced by the phrase "rough slang".

It's likely a case of being selective of how deep you want to carry the connotations and etymology. (How often does "bastard" mean "illegitimate child" these days?)

As Tom Lehrer said, anything can be funny as long as you're being superficial.
(George Carlin had a more drastic version: "Rape can be funny. Don't believe me? Imagine Daffy Duck raping Elmer Fudd.")


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sapere aude

by Number 6 on Fri May 5th, 2006 at 05:09:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That story doesn't imply a love of violence.  It implies a nearly unspeakable hatred of people who hurt children.  And, yes, I do believe that man deserves whatever he gets.  People who hurt children deserve what they get.  A childhood friend of mine was raped by one of our troop leaders when we were boyscouts.  It's not a love of violence that makes me hope someone teaches that troop leader a lesson behind bars.  I simply have no sympathy for people who would do harm to innocent people, but especially children, because children cannot defend themselves.

We can talk about the rights of inmates until we're blue in the face, and I might even agree with much of it, but, at the end of the day (and separating the fact that, say, drug offenders should not be in jail), these are people who have done disgusting things to innocent people.  If they do not want to be treated like animals -- and I do not believe they are treated as such -- then they shouldn't commit these acts.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 12:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
these are people who have done disgusting things to innocent people.  If they do not want to be treated like animals -- and I do not believe they are treated as such -- then they shouldn't commit these acts.

Stephen Donaldson was arrested for public protest.

But it was another first -- a brutal episode in a Washington, D.C. jail -- that catapulted Donaldson to national prominence in 1973, as the first survivor of jailhouse rape to discuss the issue publicly. He called a press conference to describe his experience after being jailed for trespass at the White House during a peaceful Quaker protest against the bombing of Cambodia. His jailhouse experience was at first relatively innocuous until the warden of the jail, suspecting that Donaldson, a former Associated Press reporter, might be writing an expose of brutal prison conditions. The warden transferred him to a cellblock with violent offenders, where he was gang-raped approximately 60 times over a two-day period. Upon being released, he underwent rectal surgery at a Veteran's Administration hospital. He later testified about his experience at a Washington, D.C. city council hearing. The Washington Star-News, calling for the resignation of the head of the D.C. jail, called Mr. Donaldson "a man of uncommon understanding."

Stephen Donaldson spent most of the rest of his life working to publicise, and to stop, prison rape.  He died of AIDS at 49 or 50 years of age (AIDS contracted as a result of being gang raped in prison).  

is your position then that he should not have protested in the first place, since he knew that arrest was a possibility?  or, if your position is that his arrest and detention were obviously wrongful, then unless and until we can guarantee that no arrest or detention will ever again be wrongful, would it not be better to make the conditions of incarceration less brutal?  prison rape can very easily be a death sentence, due to the role of prisons as a dispersal mechanism for AIDS and other diseases and the generally low level of medical care available to inmates.

but going back to general principles:  does this endorsement of 'laissez-faire snakepit punishment' indicate that you are, in principle, in favour of torture -- as a suitable punishment for certain selected people, who commit certain acts which are particularly loathesome?  if so, would you be willing to perform the torture -- or rape -- yourself?  if that would not be right, would you pay agents of the state to do it?  should we have official torture rooms?  [and how different would this be from stoning, acid-throwing, amputation, whipping, beheading, etc. all of which we right[eous]ly consider barbaric when inflicted by the authoritarians of certain other cultures for crimes which they consider loathesome?]

or is it easier/sufficient to throw offenders "to the dogs" and let them be victimised by the same people who are already in prison for hurting, raping, torturing, etc other people?  i.e. the Australian Penal Colony concept -- throw them all down the memory hole and let them eat each other?  declare them de jure non-humans and write them off the law books -- as the US has done to the inhabitants of its little gulag at Gitmo, most of whom have committed no very great crime?  Kafka warned us about this. Solzhenitsyn lived through it.

and it is OK to torture animals?  i.e. if to torture people is merely to treat them "like animals," presumably torturing animals is OK/normal also?  surely not...

should the pilots who dropped WP on Falluja be tortured because they did a disgusting thing to innocent people?

if you categorically "do not believe" that men in US jails are badly treated ("like animals"), does this mean you believe that all the (many and exhaustive) reports of prison abuse are utter fabrications?  Stephen Donaldson and all the thousands of other men who reported this abuse are all pathological liars?  HRW, Amnesty, and other watchdog groups are just making all this up?

colour me puzzled.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 08:27:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 Yep.  Your post makes the rounds of all the major and needed points.

 I saw it all in the Death Penalty forum at the New York Times.  There's not an excuse or a rationale or a "yeah, but, ..." that I have not seen and heard offered to justify the unjustifiable which goes on every day--and victimizes the guilty and the innocent alike ( people who "don't care what happens to them" typically overlook that there are indeed innocent people in prisons everywhere--Oh, I know, "no system is perfect, like I say, I've heard it all before).

  You might be amazed if you knew how very widespread such beliefs are.  I was amazed.  I'm not any more.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Fri May 5th, 2006 at 03:01:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"That story doesn't imply a love of violence.  It implies a nearly unspeakable hatred of people who hurt children.

Right. It isn't a love of violence.  That would be wrong, of course.  Instead, what's implied is an acceptance of, a tolerance for the violence which, it's hoped, should sate and avenge your hatred for the people who hurt children.  "Hurt" being a mild description of what some people do to children.

 So typical is the American thirst for revenge that prosecutors routinely take every opportunity--both before and after conviction--to arouse and enflame the jury's emotions, to incite this very hatred you've described.  That DAs do this so routinely cannot be purely by accident.  They do it because for so many people, the lack of good grounds to convict the accused can often be off-set and overcome in the jurors minds by distracting them with the horrifying details of the crime, which, logically of course, have absolutely no bearing on how sound or unsound is the actual evidence presented against the accused.

 It works, juries too often convict because the idea of allowing someone who just may be guilty go free on so heinous a charge is too much for their good, decent hearts to bear.


And, yes, I do believe that man deserves whatever he gets.



"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
by proximity1 on Fri May 5th, 2006 at 03:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can understand the gruesome revenge fantasies of someone directly affected by a crime but not the generalized ones. And while ugly prison conditions are by no means limited to America, I don't recall seeing the sort of social glee in that fact elsewhere - indifference yes, but not 'rah rah rape'.  
by MarekNYC on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 06:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That seems to be part of a borader attitude towards imprisonment. In the US the broad consensus seems to be that imprisonment is about retribution and 'locking people away' (and throwing away the key, I suppose). I think in Europe the purpose of imprisonment is seen to be reform and reinsertion. A lot of the right-wing "tough on crime" rhetoric is about more retribution and less reform, while in the US the "tough on crime" position is for the death penalty.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 07:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that's partially true - the reform and reinsertion part has clearly been lost in the US. However, retribution and 'locking people away' is part of the imprisonment equation in Europe as well. But what is being glorified in the rape jokes isn't simply punishment, it's torture.  To use an analogy - when raising kids, all parents and schools employ discipline, meaning punishment for bad behaviour, along of course with an attempt at teaching them to behave better, but there's a difference between legitimate discipline and child abuse.
by MarekNYC on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 07:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"completely into insanity?"
I think he may be there already.


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sapere aude
by Number 6 on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 06:17:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 "Cheer up".  I make the odds extremely high that Moussaoui will be the victim of one of those unfortunate and unforseeable and unpreventable fatal incidents which happen from time to time in prison.

 Personally, I would view that not as "jailhouse justice" but rather another indication once more of just part of the barbarity of our criminal "justice" system.  Thank your lucky stars you're on the outside of it, and hope you're never wrongly indicted for a serious felony; as it happens, innocent people still go to jail and because they do, if for no other reason, you should insist that everyone in a prison is ensured humane treatment at all times.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Fri May 5th, 2006 at 03:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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