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That story doesn't imply a love of violence.  It implies a nearly unspeakable hatred of people who hurt children.  And, yes, I do believe that man deserves whatever he gets.  People who hurt children deserve what they get.  A childhood friend of mine was raped by one of our troop leaders when we were boyscouts.  It's not a love of violence that makes me hope someone teaches that troop leader a lesson behind bars.  I simply have no sympathy for people who would do harm to innocent people, but especially children, because children cannot defend themselves.

We can talk about the rights of inmates until we're blue in the face, and I might even agree with much of it, but, at the end of the day (and separating the fact that, say, drug offenders should not be in jail), these are people who have done disgusting things to innocent people.  If they do not want to be treated like animals -- and I do not believe they are treated as such -- then they shouldn't commit these acts.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 12:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
these are people who have done disgusting things to innocent people.  If they do not want to be treated like animals -- and I do not believe they are treated as such -- then they shouldn't commit these acts.

Stephen Donaldson was arrested for public protest.

But it was another first -- a brutal episode in a Washington, D.C. jail -- that catapulted Donaldson to national prominence in 1973, as the first survivor of jailhouse rape to discuss the issue publicly. He called a press conference to describe his experience after being jailed for trespass at the White House during a peaceful Quaker protest against the bombing of Cambodia. His jailhouse experience was at first relatively innocuous until the warden of the jail, suspecting that Donaldson, a former Associated Press reporter, might be writing an expose of brutal prison conditions. The warden transferred him to a cellblock with violent offenders, where he was gang-raped approximately 60 times over a two-day period. Upon being released, he underwent rectal surgery at a Veteran's Administration hospital. He later testified about his experience at a Washington, D.C. city council hearing. The Washington Star-News, calling for the resignation of the head of the D.C. jail, called Mr. Donaldson "a man of uncommon understanding."

Stephen Donaldson spent most of the rest of his life working to publicise, and to stop, prison rape.  He died of AIDS at 49 or 50 years of age (AIDS contracted as a result of being gang raped in prison).  

is your position then that he should not have protested in the first place, since he knew that arrest was a possibility?  or, if your position is that his arrest and detention were obviously wrongful, then unless and until we can guarantee that no arrest or detention will ever again be wrongful, would it not be better to make the conditions of incarceration less brutal?  prison rape can very easily be a death sentence, due to the role of prisons as a dispersal mechanism for AIDS and other diseases and the generally low level of medical care available to inmates.

but going back to general principles:  does this endorsement of 'laissez-faire snakepit punishment' indicate that you are, in principle, in favour of torture -- as a suitable punishment for certain selected people, who commit certain acts which are particularly loathesome?  if so, would you be willing to perform the torture -- or rape -- yourself?  if that would not be right, would you pay agents of the state to do it?  should we have official torture rooms?  [and how different would this be from stoning, acid-throwing, amputation, whipping, beheading, etc. all of which we right[eous]ly consider barbaric when inflicted by the authoritarians of certain other cultures for crimes which they consider loathesome?]

or is it easier/sufficient to throw offenders "to the dogs" and let them be victimised by the same people who are already in prison for hurting, raping, torturing, etc other people?  i.e. the Australian Penal Colony concept -- throw them all down the memory hole and let them eat each other?  declare them de jure non-humans and write them off the law books -- as the US has done to the inhabitants of its little gulag at Gitmo, most of whom have committed no very great crime?  Kafka warned us about this. Solzhenitsyn lived through it.

and it is OK to torture animals?  i.e. if to torture people is merely to treat them "like animals," presumably torturing animals is OK/normal also?  surely not...

should the pilots who dropped WP on Falluja be tortured because they did a disgusting thing to innocent people?

if you categorically "do not believe" that men in US jails are badly treated ("like animals"), does this mean you believe that all the (many and exhaustive) reports of prison abuse are utter fabrications?  Stephen Donaldson and all the thousands of other men who reported this abuse are all pathological liars?  HRW, Amnesty, and other watchdog groups are just making all this up?

colour me puzzled.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 08:27:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 Yep.  Your post makes the rounds of all the major and needed points.

 I saw it all in the Death Penalty forum at the New York Times.  There's not an excuse or a rationale or a "yeah, but, ..." that I have not seen and heard offered to justify the unjustifiable which goes on every day--and victimizes the guilty and the innocent alike ( people who "don't care what happens to them" typically overlook that there are indeed innocent people in prisons everywhere--Oh, I know, "no system is perfect, like I say, I've heard it all before).

  You might be amazed if you knew how very widespread such beliefs are.  I was amazed.  I'm not any more.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Fri May 5th, 2006 at 03:01:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"That story doesn't imply a love of violence.  It implies a nearly unspeakable hatred of people who hurt children.

Right. It isn't a love of violence.  That would be wrong, of course.  Instead, what's implied is an acceptance of, a tolerance for the violence which, it's hoped, should sate and avenge your hatred for the people who hurt children.  "Hurt" being a mild description of what some people do to children.

 So typical is the American thirst for revenge that prosecutors routinely take every opportunity--both before and after conviction--to arouse and enflame the jury's emotions, to incite this very hatred you've described.  That DAs do this so routinely cannot be purely by accident.  They do it because for so many people, the lack of good grounds to convict the accused can often be off-set and overcome in the jurors minds by distracting them with the horrifying details of the crime, which, logically of course, have absolutely no bearing on how sound or unsound is the actual evidence presented against the accused.

 It works, juries too often convict because the idea of allowing someone who just may be guilty go free on so heinous a charge is too much for their good, decent hearts to bear.


And, yes, I do believe that man deserves whatever he gets.



"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
by proximity1 on Fri May 5th, 2006 at 03:23:37 PM EST
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