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no, I meant what I actually wrote:
,,,,on the letter about Bush's National Guard which appears to have been a forgery, and IMO this has been accepted by many Americans
by wchurchill on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 04:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, 'Rathergate' is the most sickeningly silly scandal ever, in there being no evidence that those were forgeries, but there was a major media campaign to imply so, and CBS bucked under it (and so did Rather, while the actual reporters filing the story protested); and a separate analysis of the documents the WH itself released evidence a serial breaking of then valid rules to get Dubya out of trouble.

(It was a bizzarre experience for me to read a WaPo article pointing out the six typographic details supposedly impossible with typewriters of the age, then go looking for an already released document, and finding all six on some lines of text written on that document...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 06:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the same Dan Rather who, shortly after 9/11, said "He's my commander-in-chief. All he has to do is tell me where to line up and I'll do it." Last I checked, Bush was commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces, not of the press.

So I didn't feel too sorry for Rather when Bush's attack dogs shredded him to pieces.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 06:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I add that after checking that document, I emailed WaPo pointing it all out. Nothing happened, no reply, no follow-up article, no taking-down or editing of the original article. And I guess they didn't just ignore me, because looking around the blogs just after, I found others did this simple work jorunalists themselves would be supposed to do, with similar results (and others did more, finding out the typewriter model aviable then that had these characteristics).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 07:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't be so hard on Dan Rather.  This is the man who made his name by running around Vietnam, telling the American people, "Uh, guys, we're losing this war," at a time when everyone refused to say so, both in the press and in government.  He was also the reporter who took a hammer to Richard Nixon and didn't stop until Nixon was gone.  Rather is no Bushie.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 12:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, brother. The document was such an obvious forgery that anybody with eyes and a copy of Microsoft Word can see it. There was no such "typewriter that could do it" found. The whole thing was indeed stupid, but the document itself was clearly and unarguably a simplistic forgery. There is no reality-based argument otherwise at this point, so I think your tinfoil hat is on a bit tight...
by asdf on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 07:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even the 200-page CBS report on 'Rathergate' couldn't find evidence of forgery (they could only blame Rather et al for not checking the story properly), so you've been sucker for propaganda.

IIRC there was even a dKos diary pointing out that there are differences between Microsoft Word and seventies variable-spaced typewriter font, and the 'Rathergate' documents were like the latter. I will dig up this and the document I checked for myself tomorrow.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 07:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not so fast there. I for one am aware of at least two experts who disagree with you, one of whom I used to know a bit, and who was not a liberal.

No, I don't have links -- this is ancient history now by online standards. And I know zilch about this stuff myself.

But while a good case can be made that the documents were indeed forged, the argument remains wide open.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 08:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 09:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently none of you have a copy of Microsoft Word. Seriously, you have been completely taken in by the tinfoil hat crowd on this...
by asdf on Thu May 4th, 2006 at 10:44:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That you could make this document in Microsoft Word?

That's the logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent.

Let p be the proposition that the document was forged with MS. That obviously entails the possibility of doing so (q): p --> q.

But you can't infer from q to p. Ab esse ad posse valet consequentia, a posse ad esse non valet consequentia, as the good ol' scholastics would say.

What you need to show is that the document couldn't have been produced using equipment available at the time whence it ostensibly derives. Check out the link I provided upthread for an argument that it could.

The whole MS thing is at most a heuristic with no real evidentiary force. Furthermore, the analysis I linked to (which I'm not admittedly not qualified to evaluate) claims that MS Word can not in fact convincingly emulate the document.

I personally lean agnostic, but if I were forced to place a bet, my kroner would be on authenticity.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Fri May 5th, 2006 at 01:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please. Have you even read my reply?

If you believe the documents were forgeries written with Microsoft Word, read this dKos diary - it also mentions the differences between MS Word and IBM Times New Roman fonts I referred to.

An exhaustive analysis of those other Bush documents that were released by the White House can be read here. This is an analysis based on the Air Force and recruitment office regulations of the time, which found evidence of a number of violations - change in status without Bush fulfilling the requirements, mandated disciplinary action or status change not implemented, even fudging with dates and designations.

When I checked on the claims in the WaPo by myself, I looked at a document from this White House-released material, one with multiple lines from different typewriters - this one (click for large version):

Check the second entry, for 4Sep68. What do I see? A raised th, which according to WaPo was rare, yet here it is in a not even variable-spaced font. Next, compare the seventh and eighth entries. You'll see the different t-s, l-s, U-s, f-s and 1-s. Also check t-s and f-s in this Killian document and compare them with Microsoft Word's...

Finally, here are the letter typefaces of IBM's Selectric typewriter:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri May 5th, 2006 at 06:23:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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