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I have always found it interesting that there is more freedom to discuss/critique Israeli government policy -- which does not reflect the will of 100 pct of Israelis any more than US policy reflects a unanimity of will among Americans -- in Israel than in the US.  Ha'aretz is a minority report among Israeli media, but it is a legitimate paper of record.  In the US, it would be under constant attack by AIPAC and ADL :-)

There are many parallels between Israel and the US at this time.  Both countries have a national/cultural mythos cementing a "White" national identity in contradistinction to a "dark, inferior indigenous" population whose land has been occupied -- a "cowboy legend".  The Palestinians are being confined to reservations now;  for Native Americans this struggle was waged and lost a century ago and more.  (And yet both countries also claim a religious identity which is inclusive;  Christianity is according to its lights small-c catholic, and Judaism accepts converts;  in fact Israeli wingnuts have gone so far as to convert mestizo peasants from S America and then award them "right of return" land in the OT;  both countries' national myths uneasily ride two divergent rails of inclusivism/cosmopolitanism and nativism/racism).

Both Israel and the US were in fairly large part colonised by outcasts, people fleeing danger and persecution in other places, and hence their citizens can easily and with some reason see themselves as champions of freedom, poor people who made good via hard work, perpetual innocent victims seeking refuge from an Evil Other (the Israelis with more recent and vivid reasons).  Both countries are paid up true-believers in Modernity and Industrialism, staking their whole economies on cheap fossil fuel, patting themselves on the back for growing crops in deserts artificially irrigated with repositioned water at great energy expense, etc.  (and both are ironically situated in areas not rich in fossil fuel)...  

Many Israelis aspire to a US suburban type of lifestyle;  one [Jewish, I hasten to add] friend of mine compared Israelis to Boers, complete with the affluent suburban White S African swimming-pool-freeway-and-air-conditioner lifeway that Americans also practise in the desert areas they wrested from more adaptive and sustainable indigenes.  Much of the OT is carburb.  In both cultures peasant farming and sustainable practise is being (has been) swept aside in favour of corporate factory ag, resulting in ever greater food and water precarity.

In both countries a radical rightist/fundie religious bloc dances a dangerous mambo of tail and dog with rightwing and militarist politicos.  Both countries have turned aside from a more leftist/pacifist period (many of the Kibbutzinm did genuinely try to come to terms with Arab neighbours) and into a hardening rightist/patriarchal/capitalist/authoritarian period.  Both countries are heavily enmeshed in the international weapons trade and have large nuke arsenals, yet cannot provide real security for their own populations.  Both rightwing elites rely on "with us or against us" millennial rehetoric and threatmongering to ensure compliance of the electorate with territorial/resource grabbing ventures.  

Both enjoyed at one time a much higher and more idealistic reputation on the world stage and are now falling into relative disrepute, and upset about this loss of reputation.  Both are (officially or by majority mood) in denial about the shadier aspects of their own national foundation, and tend to take refuge from that realpolitik in emotional patriotism, flag waving, and religion.  And both are powered by strong narratives of Exceptionalism which they both draw from the same Old Testament sources.  It's worth noting (again) that a large bloc of the Likudnik lobby in the US is rightwing Christians with millennial belief systems, who regard the return of world Jewry to a refounded Nation of Israel as a precondition for End Times prophecy.

Israel and the US could learn a lot from one another.  But whether their policies are actually good for Americans or good for Jews -- and specifically whether AIPAC represents anything recognisable as "Jewish" welfare or interest -- is a whole 'nother matter.  RQbbi Warshal of Florida writes:

I agree with Walt and Mearsheimer that AIPAC controls our American government policy toward Israel. But in their paper the two political scientists point out that, "In its basic operations, the Israel Lobby is no different from the farm lobby, steel or textile workers' unions, or other ethnic lobbies. There is nothing improper about American Jews and their Christian allies attempting to sway US policy; the Lobby's activities are not a conspiracy of the sort depicted in tracts like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion."

Coming from South Florida, I am acutely aware that our government policy toward Cuba is dictated by the Cuban Lobby. Why else would we have such an absurd opposition to Castro? If we can make peace with Red China and the "evil empire" of the Soviet Union, why do we continue an embargo against an obscure Communist island, if it were not for domestic political pressure? So it is with the Jewish domestic lobby. My complaint is that the self-appointed Jewish leaders who control AIPAC and other positions of power within the Jewish community do not represent the best interests of Jews, Israel or the United States in the long run.

Let's zero in on AIPAC. It is controlled by right-wing, rich Jewish neo-conservatives. As one manifestation of the truth of this assertion one merely has to look at its annual meeting this past month. At a time when Vice President Cheney's popularity has dropped below 20 percent, the 4,500 delegates to the AIPAC convention gave him a standing ovation for almost a minute before he even opened his mouth and then proceeded to give him 48 rounds of applause in a 35-minute speech. (As my colleague Leonard Fein pointed out, that's once every 43.7 seconds). Considering that 75 percent of American Jews voted for Kerry, it is obvious that these people are out of the mainstream of Jewish thought.
t the same conference, preceding the recent Israeli elections, these delegates were addressed by Ehud Olmert (Kadima), Amir Peretz (Labor) and Benjamin Netanyahu (Likud) by video link from Israel. Olmert and Peretz received polite applause. The AIPAC delegates cheered enthusiastically for Netanyahu, especially when he presented his hard line that was overwhelmingly rejected by the Israeli electorate. Once a great organization, today AIPAC does not even represent the feelings of the average Israeli, let alone the average American Jew.

[...]

 Beware that you are reading treasonable material. If you "out" the Israeli lobby and you are Gentile, you're branded an anti-Semite; if you are Jewish, you're obviously a self-hating Jew. The Jewish establishment abides no criticism of Israel. You don't agree with me? Take this example: Last month a pro-Palestinian play entitled My Name is Rachel Corrie was to open at the New York Theatre Workshop, a "progressive" company on East Fourth Street. The play is based on the writings of a young British girl who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer when she was protesting the demolition of Palestinian homes in Gaza two years ago. Although the play was widely praised in London last year, it never opened in New York. The theater producers spoke to the ADL and other Jewish leaders, including big-money Jews on its board, and that was the end of that. But, of course, we don't "censor" discussion concerning Israel. We just politely give our opinions and the voice of the other side disappears.

Another example: 400 rabbis, including myself, signed a letter sponsored by Brit Tzedek v'Shalom that appeared in the Forward this past month. It was a mildly liberal statement that proclaimed that "we are deeply troubled by the recent victory of Hamas," but went on to urge "indirect assistance to the Palestinian people via NGO's, with the appropriate conditions to ensure that it does not reach the hands of terrorists." Pretty mild stuff. Yet pulpit rabbis across this country who signed the letter have reported a concerted effort to silence them. The letter has been branded a "piece of back-stabbing abandonment of the Jews of Israel." Synagogue boards have been pressured to silence their rabbis by that loose coalition called the "Israel Lobby."

Just another example of the Jewish establishment stifling any discussion of Israel that does not conform to the neo-conservative tenets of AIPAC and its cohorts. Beware of these self-appointed guardians of Israel and Jewish values. In the end they will destroy everything that makes Judaism a compassionate religion, and if in their zeal they do not destroy Israel, they certainly will not make it more secure.

also worth a think, Marc Ellis on 'Constantinian Judaism' or the peril of religion hijacked into the service of (ethnic) nationalism.

my $0.02 as of today:  I think we have to understand AIPAC and the rest of the Israel Lobby as an integrated part of a rightwing, fundamentalist, and tribalist backlash worldwide.  Like the rest of the rightwing spin machine one of their primary tactics is to silence any opposition.  This omerta has been broken by Walt and Mearsheimer, who may well pay heavily for it professionally and in broken friendships and damaged collegial relationships.  But simply by opening up that locked box I think they have done everyone -- including Israelis -- a favour.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 04:42:34 PM EST
Great comemnt on its own..another diary?  but let me recall you that Haaretz is not a a minor newspapers. It is tru ethat it does not have the level of sales of other newspapers but its reports and influence can be felt on other media outlets.

Army Radio is knwon for being the more balanced and also have the view point of Haaretz-structure.

So Haaretz indeed creatives an important narrative both because it is not as minor as you say and also because it heavily influences other outlets.

Unfortunately TV reigns supreme...and ronaldinho (an idol around hee)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 05:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry kcurie, by "minority report" I meant not a "minor" newspaper but one which represents the view of less than 50 percent of the public.  as far as I can tell Gush Shalom and similar groups are still a minority, and the conservatives still have majority backing despite Likud's decline, yes?  but please correct me if you have a better sense, as Israeli politics can be tricky for casual outsiders to follow.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 05:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
as far as I can tell Gush Shalom and similar groups are still a minority, and the conservatives still have majority backing despite Likud's decline, yes?

Indeed unlike Rabbi Warshal, I'd consider Kadima marginally better than Likud, and Labour still can't dig itself out.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 05:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yes , yes, then you are right.

Present haaretz stand on the issues is not shared by 50 % of the isreli. Only 25-35% want a complete withdrawal and negotiations about the big blocs and East Jerusalem inmediately afterwards (where "negotiation" means giving land of Israel for the big blocs and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine).

Another third of the population want a small palestinian state with Jerusalem as the unique capital of Israel but would accept giving up some land in exchange for the blocs (upon some convincing that it will bring peace)... The rest are likudniks, radical orthodoxs or off-politics (some of them also into ultra-orthodox politics,a world off-politics of its own).

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu May 11th, 2006 at 06:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the second group is the one that Peres belongs to. He said in one interview I saw on CBC that perhaps something Israel ought to look into is trading some of its land for existing outposts near Jerusalem.

I think whether the country was created under the right or wrong premises, we need to accept the fact that Israel will never allow the return of the Palestinians. And truth be told, throwing terms like "refugees" around is a bit dangerous. There are hundreds of thousands of "refugees" in Israel - Jews who have fled or moved away from areas where they felt threatened. They are not refugees. Neither are the Palestinians living in refugee camps. They are JUST Palestinians. We need to move away from using thousands of people as a tool of some kind. Both people deserve to have their own country and both must accept each other's right to exist.

Mikhail from SF

by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Fri May 12th, 2006 at 01:42:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Throwing the idea od the rfugees is for poker purposes for Palestinians. As the idea of retaining importan parts of the West Bank for Israle. they are there fo rthe sake of saying that both made compromises.

As you may guess the problem is that they are both serious about Jerusalem....

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri May 12th, 2006 at 03:24:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Palestinian side as repeatedly pointed out that the right of return doesn't mean actual return by hundreds of thousands. Most don't want to live in Israel, you see. But it could be the basis of (a) reparations, (b) visits to old dwelling-places inside Israel, and (IIRC this one wasn't said openly by Palestinians) (c) Israeli subsidies for the construction of new homes for refugees in the new Palestina.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri May 12th, 2006 at 05:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
allthose things a third of isralis would happily accept in exchange for a safe jewish majority democratic state. The restof the population..I guess you could convince another third...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri May 12th, 2006 at 07:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Difficult, when they turn to Kadima, and Barak and his former staff insist to keep up the myths to absolve them for the failure of Taba and Camp David - but if the well-meaning third is persistent, it may happen.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri May 12th, 2006 at 09:49:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
we need to accept the fact that Israel will never allow the return of the Palestinians.

Oh, and the Palestinians will never accept an agreement without right of return.

You can't make a peace deal on the basis of such categoric statements.

Neither are the Palestinians living in refugee camps.

Please. No historical amnesia here.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri May 12th, 2006 at 05:11:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reparations were offered by Barak during Camp David. Whether or not you liked the proposal Barak put forth at that time, it was heck of a lot more than what Arafat prepared as a counter-offer (which was pretty much nothing). There would have been an independent Palestine by now already had it not been for all these shenanigans. I think it is reasonable to say that had Arafat come back with a reasonable counter-proposal, it would have been accepted. After all, a compromise is when all parts walk away somewhat unhappy with the outcome.

The right of return is somewhat of a silly notion anyway. First of all, the people who live in Palestine today have nothing to do with the people who fled Israel 50 years ago. Second of all, it remains a question mark how many of those who fled did so on their own vs. being forced out. Third of all, it is hard to negotiate with the government that doesn't even want to recognize the state of Israel.

Mikhail from SF

by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Fri May 12th, 2006 at 12:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reparations were offered by Barak during Camp David.

Barak's offer didn't include granting the right of return, it only included a promise of aid for refugees re-settled to Palestina. In fact, at Taba, Barak proved more uncompromising on the issue of right of return than his own negotiators, who together with their counterparts moved the debate to the number of refugees to be accepted back (and it was Barak who broke off the negotiations).

There would have been an independent Palestine by now

A mini-bantustan cut up and completely dependent on Israel. That's not an offer, that's blackmail, one built upon Barak's all previous broken promises (for example settlement expansions). Look at Gush Shalom's presentation (Flash; same as html; they don't even show the Israeli-patrolled crossing roads; also look at this timeline map series).

A good detailed analysis of Camp David (and Taba) comes again from Gush Shalom.

Palestine today have nothing to do with the people who fled Israel 50 years ago.

Ah come on.

it remains a question mark how many of those who fled did so on their own vs. being forced out.

The circumstances of fleeing from your homes are totally irrelevant to the question of the right of return. Ethnic Serbs in Croatia who fled on their own didn't lost their right to return, however much Croatian nationalist leaders wished them away. Besides, the Palestinians have several UN resolutions to base their claim on.

it is hard to negotiate with the government that doesn't even want to recognize the state of Israel.

Have you now switched to Hamas? Or do you rely on Barak's snide rhetoric about why Arafat rejected Clinton's offer to only have 'guardianship' over the Temple Mount? But even ignoring that, this is a most silly argument - when one side is armed with helicopters, fighter jets, nuclear bombs and occupies the other and continues to settle its territory, not to speak of acknowledging their statehood, then the solution must start with the other's a-priori acknowledgement of statehood?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri May 12th, 2006 at 02:40:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1. You said this in your previous post:

"The Palestinian side as repeatedly pointed out that the right of return doesn't mean actual return by hundreds of thousands. Most don't want to live in Israel, you see. But it could be the basis of (a) reparations, (b) visits to old dwelling-places inside Israel, and (IIRC this one wasn't said openly by Palestinians) (c) Israeli subsidies for the construction of new homes for refugees in the new Palestina."

Isn't this exactly what Barak was offering minus visits to old dwelling places? So, which right of return are you talking about - right of permanent return, or compensation for living in Palestine? I'm sure had Arafat asked for allowing people to visit temporarily at Camp David, he would have gotten it.

  1. Any way to slice Palestine, it will be a cut up country. Even if Israel returns to pre-1967 borders (which is pretty much the most any left-wing Israeli will ever propose), Palestine will have two onclaves completely separated from one another with Israeli land in between them.

  2. The circumstance of fleeing your home is NOT irrelevant to the right of return. If I voluntarily leave a place without any threat directly aimed at me, I am not a refugee. I'm an immigrant. Many religious and political leaders in the Arab world used the formation of the Israeli state as a rallying cry and made people scared through their fearmongering.

  3. It doesn't matter what one side is armed with. There are very simple and very basic diplomatic steps that need to be taken in order to sit at the negotiating table. Even if the Palestinian cause is just, there is the right approach and the wrong approach to everything. The Hamas approach has clearly not worked thus far.

With regard to Camp David, there were three main issues, as you know: territory, Jerusalem, and right of return.

  1. Territory - Barak made a pretty unreasonable offer by offering to annex a bunch of land in exchange for a piece in Negev. Bad Barak. What did Arafat do? Absolutely nothing. He mad no effort to make a counter-proposal whatsoever.

  2. Jerusalem - Arafat rejected the Israeli idea of giving East Jerusalem to the Palestinians as custodians. Here, I think it is pretty clear-cut. Israel was willing to take a step forward and go from complete Israeli ownership to half-half. Arafat, of course, wanted everything or nothing.

  3. Refugees - this has been talked about plenty. Israel offered a bunch of money. Again, it was a step forward - maybe not to Palestine's complete satisfaction, but a step nonetheless. The point made by Israel, that many Jews fled from Arab countries, but have received no compensation since then, while a little iffy, needs to be examined in the context of setting precedents. Physical right of return is almost never possible; monetary compensation, on the other hand, is.


Mikhail from SF
by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Fri May 12th, 2006 at 05:54:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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