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EUROPEAN NEWS
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:35:24 AM EST
BBC: Madrid marchers reject Eta talks

At least 200,000 people marched through Madrid on Saturday, demanding the government call off planned peace talks with the Basque separatist group Eta.

The march was called by Spain's right-wing opposition and associations of victims of attacks by armed groups.

Participants carried banners reading: "Negotiations, not in my name".

Eta declared a permanent ceasefire on 22 March, and in May Spain's Socialist prime minister announced his intention to open direct talks with the group.

Some victims' associations say the government is dishonouring the memory of those killed by Eta over four decades - though others have distanced themselves from the demonstration organisers.


by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:42:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me point out that the victim association is split now. Basically, each region of spain has broken with the central board that rules the victim association.

Also point out that other smaller victim associations and regional boards have been very vocal and critic of the present board for his links to the rigth-wing party PP.

SO, if the demonstration was about how many victims do share the message, I would see a majority but not a very clear majority (at the spanish level). At the catalan level , the support by ETA victims to the national victim association is almost non-existent.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 03:53:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Let's sacrifice another thousand troops in Iraq so the twenty five hundred who have died so far will not have done so in vain"?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:28:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But aren't peace talks about the future, and not clinging to the past. As South Africa demonstrates, you only get peace and reconciliation when you accept that you cannot live in the past anymore.

N Ireland's continuing low-level tragedy is that it cannot accept that the past is gone and only the future can be changed. The demands of long term peace and short term justice cannot always be reconciled and it requires bravery to seek the harder path for the long term. Cowards hide behind victims for short term gain.

By embracing these demands to reject discussions they effectively reject the hope of a peaceful future for an unattainable victory in the name of the past.

they are fools.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be really easy for Britons to understand it if they cared: it's like confusing Britain and England, and over the last couple of weeks there has been a controversy over a "flag ban" over concerns that flying the English flag might "offend" the other nationalities within Britain.

It's really not caring to know rather than inability to understand.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:38:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, reply to the wrong comment... Gnomes delete parent, please?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:39:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I went to delete the parent...but it takes out yours and Alex's...so will leave it...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:59:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok I re-posted my comment in the right place, you can delete this sub-thread bob!
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:02:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I reposted everything now.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:04:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I must admit I still don't get the British isles nationalities. I understand Bretons, Alsaciens, Corsicans, Basques, Catalans as distinct cultural entities, but not as "nations". They are part of the nation of France, just like Wales is part of the United Kingdom.

But then I understand "New Caledonia" as a nation, so I guess I could easily make the jump and declare Welsh their own nation. At what point should I make the jump? (I must admit I don't know why I consider New Caledonia to be its own nation, but distance probably helps subconsciously). When there is a local parliament? But then if that parliament has to follow national laws, then doesn't that equate to Regional Councils? And then what about the US? Is Utah a nation?

[/argh]

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:43:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I do understand is that this gives the Brits more chances of winning a football or rugby world cup.
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, if England had subsumed Wales and had Ryan Giggs in various competitions in the last 15 years...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:05:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Arrgh! we're trying to kill this subthread: repost your comment in the right place!

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:09:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bob, you can delete this thread, my comment will be reposted.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:11:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No offence meant, but this just means you have no idea of British history ;-)

BTW, you replied to a post of mine which was in reply to the wrong post... maybe you could cross-post to the right place?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:46:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Scotsman: Israel's Olmert eyes Europe support on Hamas, Iran

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert begins on Sunday his first visit to Britain and France, where he will likely seek a strong European stand against the Hamas-led Palestinian government and Iran's nuclear programme.

In talks with Prime Minister Tony Blair and French President Jacques Chirac, Olmert will also lobby for his West Bank redeployment plan, which has won U.S. praise but faces political hurdles at home and the misgivings of moderate Arabs.

As top European Union powers, Britain and France have played supporting roles in navigating a beleaguered "road map" to Israeli-Palestinian peace. Along with Germany, they have also led Western bids to curb Iran's atomic ambitions through talks.

Yet many Israelis see the Europeans as less reliable Middle East powerbrokers than their U.S. ally, a view bolstered by reports of anti-Semitism among Europe's growing Muslim minority.

"It (European Union) is the weak link, but Olmert has the advantage of coming with a plan under which he is willing to give up territory," an Israeli official said, referring to a proposal to remove dozens of Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank while annexing others in the absence of peace talks.


by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:47:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"It (European Union) is the weak link, but Olmert has the advantage of coming with a plan under which he is willing to give up territory,"

WTF does that mean? If the EU is a "weak link", why bother courting its support? But isn't that what Olmert's doing, with his "plan"? Is "reliable broker" US not enough? And if there's a shift in power perception because GWB looks more and more like a busted flush, why must Israel go on disparaging the EU?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 02:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps I am being too charitable, but the phrase could have been intended to mean "weak link in terms of a solid support chain for his plan," and not "weak link in the war on terror" or "weak link in the chain that strangles the middle east" or whatever.
by Zwackus on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:17:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Independent: Britain accused of U-turn on public scrutiny of EU

Britain will face furious accusations of "betrayal" from its European neighbours today as the Foreign Secretary, Margaret Beckett, tries to water down moves the UK once championed to open EU law-making to public scrutiny.

At a meeting of EU foreign ministers Ms Beckett will argue that plans to allow television cameras into almost all discussions on legislation go too far, too fast. She will also suggest that such proposals will force negotiation into informal and private discussions in the corridors away from the glare of the cameras.

The new minister's stance has provoked anger because achieving greater openness was a theme of the UK's six-month presidency of the EU which ended in December. When Tony Blair agreed to the European constitution he backed the principle of transparency which was written into the text. Then, when the constitution was rejected in referendums in France and Holland, the UK argued that greater openness was one of the measures that would help restore confidence in the EU.
One EU diplomat said there was "surprise" that reservations were coming from "the country which was promoting the topic during its presidency".

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:53:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...that even self-respected newspapers make the mistake:

Then, when the constitution was rejected in referendums in France and Holland, the UK argued that greater openness was one of the measures that would help restore confidence in the EU.

There is a long way to go... Not Holland. The Netherlands.

by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 04:20:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This would be a common mistake in the UK where the terms Holland/Netherlands are used interchangably. Most of us refer to the Dutch national team as Holland.  I have read that there is an important difference as far as the Dutch are concerned, but it remains largely unknown to us.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:20:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be really easy for Britons to understand it if they cared: it's like confusing Britain and England, and over the last couple of weeks there has been a controversy over a "flag ban" over concerns that flying the English flag might "offend" the other nationalities within Britain.

It's really not caring to know rather than inability to understand.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:39:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...that anything with "Dutch" in the English language is actually meant to make Dutch look bad. I thought it was mostly coincidental... until yesterday.

Linguistical spite. It's even more subtle than France bashing.

by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:52:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I always try to use "Netherlands" ever since I lived there. It's evil hard trying to write a World Cup report on a game and remember to use Netherlands whilst the commentators bang on about "Holland"... ;-)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:02:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I must admit I still don't get the British isles nationalities. I understand Bretons, Alsaciens, Corsicans, Basques, Catalans as distinct cultural entities, but not as "nations". They are part of the nation of France, just like Wales is part of the United Kingdom.

But then I understand "New Caledonia" as a nation, so I guess I could easily make the jump and declare Welsh their own nation. At what point should I make the jump? (I must admit I don't know why I consider New Caledonia to be its own nation, but distance probably helps subconsciously). When there is a local parliament? But then if that parliament has to follow national laws, then doesn't that equate to Regional Councils? And then what about the US? Is Utah a nation?

[/argh]

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:01:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I do understand is that this gives the Brits more chances of winning a football or rugby world cup.
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:02:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? If there was one UK rugby team, one UK football team, they might stand a better chance yet...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No offence meant, but this just shows how little you know of British history.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:04:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But why should he ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why should he what? Be offended, know the history, or get the nationalities?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why should he know the history and understand the nationalities ?

He's in Toulouse: Britain's internal vanities are of no useful concern whatsoever, except for amusement purposes.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is something euphemistically known as The Troubles where people got blown up to bits for "Britain's internal vanities".

I said "no offence" by which I mean that I understood he had no reason to think there's more to it than vanity, on which I disagree with you, even though I am not British. I am as bold as I am ignorant, as you know.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is something euphemistically known as The Troubles where people got blown up to bits for "Britain's internal vanities".

N Ireland is not in Britain.

England = England

England  + Wales = Britain

Britain + Scotland + Scottish islands = Great Britain

Great Britain + N Ireland  + lots of offshore islands like Isle of Man & Channel Islands = United Kingdom

As for what the Ulster troubles were about, it's complicated to the point that if you were to go around Ulster and ask 100 people what the issues really were, you'd probably  get 101 contradictory answers. However, most people in Britain were of the opinion that it had little to do with us, even if that was a little self-serving and evasive.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:46:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for clarifying the terminology. I will from now on never use "Britain" to mean "Great Britain" or "UK".

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:49:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Same here, I had no idea! the horror, the horror :)
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:52:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's already unnerving enough that Brittany and Britain both translate as Bretaña in Spanish.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does Great Britain then becomes Gran Bretaña...? I see a traumatic youth in development...
by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:06:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and an hijo de la Gran Bretaña is a son of a bitch.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:07:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hehe and por supuesto means poor bastard
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:09:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are there any children still born in Spain named Bretaña...? Linguistical spite in Spanish too, eh?
by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I finally understood your questions. No, Brittany is a girl's name that has no translation.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, if Great Britain and Ireland are "The British Isles", and Great Britain is "Great Britain", surely Ireland must be "Little Britain"?

Sort of like Mallorca and Menorca (Mallor = Larger, Menor = Smaller).

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:01:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha, why don't you find an Irishman and suggest that. How about Colman ? I'm sure he'd only ban you from the site for a few months.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the issue of things "not having to do with whomever", I'll just quote Terence: Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto, which just means that, humans being curious creatures, we like to stick out noses where they don't belong.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:53:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to recall during the Ulster troubles people were blown also up to bits in the English heartland?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but that's what I meant by complicated. There were all sorts of enemies being dealt with and guns were being pointed in all directions.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was addressing the "evasive" part of your comment.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:09:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't want to spoil the fun, but have you got a reference for that "England + Wales = Britain" ? I've never heard of it, and Wikipedia seems to disagree with you. "Britain" is just used for short, in place of "Great Britain".

Historically "Great Britain" is so named by contrast with the smaller Britain, Brittany, called Armor(ica) until Britons migrated there as the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc, advanced into what is now England (C6 and on).

OTOH, you're quite right that the full national title is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:08:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, that explains Bretaña = Brittany.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:11:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no reference except to say that it is a common assumption.

The Cross of St George currently flying from practically every car in England isn't really the English flag at all. It is instead the symbol of English subjugation of Wales under Edward II as it was his banner and was flown from all of the castles built to enforce occupation as a symbol of his rule.  It has been the flag of Britain, as in the construct England and Wales, ever since.

As Wales has a flag, it has become a de facto flag of England, 'cept of course it isn't.

So when scotland was finally defeated Britain became Great Britain.

And I wouldn't trust wikipedia one byte. It's just the rubbish last input.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:45:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 Helen,

 Have you got a copy of Whitaker's Almanac handy? --any edition should serve.  Look in there for the reference to the formal "legal" name for Britain.  I bet you'll find it in the headers to its summary info on various nations of the world.  Most general almanacs list the nations of the world and state the formal names--as well as specifying their components!

 Britain = England /*, Wales, Scotland, & the highjacked bits of Eire-- [England: /*excluding of course a recalcitrant bit surrounded by England and going by the name of "Yorkshire"].

 ;^)

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:16:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the CIA World Factbook says
conventional long form: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; note - Great Britain includes England, Scotland, and Wales
conventional short form: United Kingdom
abbreviation: UK


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

 Since when does the C.I.A. get anything right?

    ;^)

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, sorry I don't have Whittaker's. However a browse of the web was illuminating.

Many references to common usages, many of which had Britain as another name for the entity 'Great Britain'. However, the word unofficially seemed to crop up at inconvenient times in all these definitions. Which led me to being quite confused.

Maybe there isn't a hard and fast definition as I expected, just accepted usages of which none have ever been officially defined.

In which case I would accept that mine is an uncommon set of definitions and will stand corrected. But I don't think I'm officially wrong either.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What does the Oxford English Dictionnary say? It has the advantage that it gives you the earliest [known to Oxford] use of each meaning.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:37:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Osford English Dictionnary:
Britain 1. a. The proper name of the whole island containing England, Wales, and Scotland, with their dependencies; more fully called Great Britain; now also used for the British state or empire as a whole. After the OE. period, *Britain  was used only as a historical term, until about the time of Henry VIII and Edward VI, when it came again into practical politics in connexion with the efforts made to unite England and Scotland; in 1604 James I was proclaimed `King of Great Britain'; and this name was adopted for the United Kingdom, at the Union in 1707. After that event,  South Britain  and  North Britain  are frequent in Acts of Parl. for England and Scotland respectively: the latter is still in occasional (chiefly postal) use. (So  West Britain , humorously or polemically for `Ireland'.)  Greater Britain  is a modern rhetorical phrase for `Great Britain and the colonies', `the British Empire', brought into vogue in 1868.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish I had access to the OED (perhaps someone does). But, in the meanwhile, here's a useful page at answers.com that pulls together explanations from a number of sources.

I know the official use of "Great Britain" (= England + Wales + Scotland) dates back to 1603, when James VI of Scotland also became James I of England (and Wales). The actual union of the kingdoms (of England(Wales) and Scotland) came a century later, with the Act of Union of 1707.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do have access, but it's hideously clumsy to use as it involves logging on remotely to my old university account and using a text-only browser [the university library has an institutional subscription to the OED].

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, here are the quotations under Britain in the OED: (The things in {}-braces are non-latin letters I did not feel like finding html encodings for)
(No separate OED entry for Great Britain exists)

a855 O.E. Chron. Introd., Gaius Iulius se Casere ærest Romana Breten-lond δesohte.
c890 K. ÆLFRED Bæda I. i, Breoton is ealond.
1297 R. GLOUC. 22 And aftur Brut ys owne nome he clepede hit Breteyne. 82 Bretayne.
a1375 Joseph Arim. (Vernon MS.) 232 {Th}e Auenturus of Brutayne.
c1428 Arthur 265 Maximian kyng of Bretaingne Conquered al France and Almayne.
c1500 Lyfe Jos. Armathy (W. de W.) lf. 4 Ioseph of Aramathia..came in to grete Brytayne.
c1505 DUNBAR `Schir for {Ygh}our Grace' 11 Fairest and best In Bartane.
c1515 Prophecy of Bertlington, The French wife shal beare the Sonne Shal weild al Bretane to the sea.
1542 HEN. VIII Declar. Scots Bivb, Brutus of whom the realme than callyd Brytayn toke fyrst that name.
1547 J. HARRISON Exhort. Scottes Hvj, Ye names of both subiectes & realmes ceassing, & to be changed into ye name of Britain & Britons, as it was at first, & yet stil ought to be.
1548 N. BODRUGAN Epitome Avb, England the only supreme seat of thempire of greate Briteigne.
1604 Procl. Jas. I, 24 Oct., King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland.
1630 WADSWORTH Sp. Pilgr. vii. 69 His Majesty of great Britaine. 1665 MANLEY Grotius' Low-C. Warrs 779 King James..obliterating the names of Scots and English, would have both to be united and grow up into one Kingdome..to be called Britain.
1667 DRYDEN Ann. Mirab. Ded., To the Metropolis of Great Britain, the most renowned and late flourishing city of London.
1707 Act of Union xi. §1 That the two Kingdoms of England and Scotland shall..be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain.
1710 Act 9 Anne vi. §4 To export and transport from Great Britain into Ireland.
1718 Act 5 Geo. I, xi. §16 The importation of Tar and Pitch from North-Britain into any part of South-Britain.
1729 Act 2 Geo. II, xxxv. §12 In several Parts of North Britain commonly called Scotland. Ibid. Brought..to that part of Great Britain called England.
1740 THOMSON `Rule Britannia', When Britain first, at Heaven's command, Arose from out the azure main.
c1800 DIBDIN `I sailed from the Downs', So adieu to the white cliffs of Britain.
1832 Act 2 & 3 Will. IV, lxxv. §1 In that part of the United Kingdom called Great Britain, and..that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland.
1868 C. W. DILKE (title) Greater Britain: Travels 1866-67.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, someone!

Having taken a look at Chaucer (late C14) I may add that he (or his characters in the Canterbury Tales, who use different idioms according to rank, regional origin, and personal foibles) uses the following:

Britaigne, Britayne, Briteyne, to mean either Britain or Brittany (which he also calls Armorik(e): "In Armorik, that called is Britayne" Franklin's Tale, l.1);

Bret, Briton, to mean Welshman;

Britoun, Briton, to mean Breton.

No use of (for example) "Grete Britayne" to mean "Great Britain".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I can't say that I am too familiar with all the historical events that made things the way they are in the UK, but I am familiar with the way things went in France, where Breton/Corsican/Alsatian/Basque "nationalism" is now marginal at best, after decades of being crushed by the all-crushing French Nation. Regionalism is still strong in these places, but then even Toulousains and Marseillais are proud of their identity and of their "region" ...

ps: I've observed this issue of "cultural sub-nationalism" a lot since I went to Sri Lanka, and since then I try not to take it seriously. I landed in SL convinced that there were the Sinhalese, and there were the Tamils ... but the very first good friend I made there had a Tamil father and a Sinhalese mother ... confusion enough to make me feel like burning my books about the history of both cultures.

I am however aware of sensitivity on this type of issue so I do say British instead of English. However in France people commonly say "les Anglais" (the English) to refer to Great Britain as a whole.

And actually I know what's behind this sensitivity too: in all the years I've spent abroad, people I'd meet would often say "ah you're French, so you're from Paris huh?". This would sometimes make me pout.

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:34:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, IMHO
  1. The Prince of Wales (or his heir) would do good to become the first Prince of Wales in history to learn the Welsh language.
  2. "England and Wales" should be broken up as an administrative unit, into England and Wales.
  3. There should be separate English and British parliaments.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:38:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
4. The United Kingdom should field only one team in sports tournaments (and the six nations tournament would then become the four nations tournament)

[/i'm actually snarking, I like the fact that there is a Scott & Welsh team in rugby ... but we should also be allowed to have Southwest & Rest-of-France French teams, being different rugby cultures entirely]

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:43:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It probably didn't even register in your radar, but there was an attempt to get a Catalan field hockey team recognized internationally. They were even allowed to play in the international 'B' division for a season and routed every one of their opponents. Then Aznar's government heavily lobbied at the international body governing hockey and got their bid rejected.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's interesting that in middle class sports like rugby and cricket, aggregation is acceptable. But in working class sports such as football it isn't.

Ireland have one rugby team, but two football teams.

The Englaish cricket team is actually officially the MCC (Marylebone cricket club) to get around the fact that Welsh and Scots (and nowadays just about anybody else) can play for them.

West Indies is one cricket team and god knows how many football teams.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right in a sense, but the reason is that rugby and cricket are not played or supported by vast numbers of people. There are not many Rugby Union players in Ireland (Colman will tell us there aren't any), and a deliberate effort was made to bring the North and the Republic together to increase the chances of fielding a competitive international side. Something similar applies to cricket -- the Scots and Welsh don't play it much and iirc the only first-class county side outside England is Glamorgan...

It's easier to build and support football sides. Look at how many pro clubs London has.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:24:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Initially there were two unions both founded in 1874. The Irish Football Union had jurisdiction over Clubs in Leinster, Munster and parts of Ulster; the Northern Football Union of Ireland controlled the Belfast area. The IRFU was formed in 1879 as an amalgamation of the two different organisations and branches were formed in Leinster, Munster and Ulster. The Connacht Branch was formed in 1886.(Wikipedia)

The IRFU predates partition... it was the soccer crowd that split:

Upon the partition of Ireland in 1921 the FAIFS (now the FAI) was set up to regulate the game in the Irish Free State (now the Republic of Ireland). Those behind the FAIFS believed that soccer should be regulated by a federation based in the Free State capital Dublin. The IFA's supporters argued that the federation should be based where the game was mainly played - Ulster and its principal city Belfast. Both federations claimed to represent the whole of the island and both competed as Ireland and both picked players from the two rival leagues - which also split at this time.
(Wikipedia)

Which endorses Helen's view I guess: the upper and middle class sport stayed as one because it would have been dominated by rich Protestant or Anglo-Irish and the working class sport split over politics.

While I didn't go to a "rugby school", my father played  at some level in London in the sixties...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, I always wanted to ask someone (not you specifically but anyone in the know): how do the political divisions map onto the North Irish football team?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:51:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No idea. I'm guessing that Northern Protestants/Unionists don't have much time for the Republic team, but I'm not sure of the attitude of the Nationalists.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:08:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the historical detail -- I didn't know it went back that far -- but this still seems to me to beg the question. Why should a working-class sport be subject to disunion? Is there something proper to the working-class essence that makes it so, or is it intervention from above (ie upper classes), or is it (as I suggest) that football has the numbers (players, supporters) to make division possible and therefore envisageable?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:52:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would you said below seems quite valid (just look at the West Indies ... each island has so few cricket players - precisely because it's a middle class sport - that they have to gang up).

But then again maybe working class sports are so much a way for the working class to be heard that they don't want to share the glory of being heard with distant others?

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:58:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have expected the upper and middle classes to be much closer personally than the working classes: they would have gone to the same - or at least overlapping - schools, the parties, the universities. They would have done business with each other. Working class Protestant Belfast and Catholic Dublin would hardly ever have met. That wouldn't be true of the richer classes.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:05:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's see, gruff English pack, slick Welsh backs and some Scottish bruisers sprinkled in.

Be careful what you wish for Alex, you might not like the outcomes.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Prince of Wales does speak Welsh. He was taught to be fluent as a pre-condition by his mother for accepting the title. He was probably the first ever to be required to do so.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He does? First news I have of that. Makes me like the guy some more.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:55:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also makes me like the Queen a little more for the requirement.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There should be separate English and British parliaments.

There were plans to devolve power to a collection of Regional Assemblies around the country, which would be more or less equivalent to a local parliament, and would deal with local issues in much the same way that the Welsh and Scottish assemblies do already.

There was a stirring lack of interest from most of the regions about this. So although there's a Campaign for an English Parliamen, as Wikipedia says 'politically it remains a minor issue.'

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:20:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but most people do confuse Britain and England and most of the time few of us care.

Of course, when the English do it the Scots and Welsh care a lot. Which is  understandable, but it's unreasonable to expect non-natives to understand domestic squabbles.

I was entirely unaware until this week there was even an issue about The Netherlands/Holland and I bet that fewer than 0.1% of people here know even that much. It's not a case of not caring, it's a simple case of not knowing.

As for Dutch being a term of abuse, that may well be, but it's lost in mists of time. I certainly wasn't aware of that connotation and I doubt that few are.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those "few of us" who care would be the Scots, Welsh and Irish, as 5/6 of the population of the UK lives in England. I would think that the Scots and Welsh that care a lot when an Englishman says "England" for "Britain" probably do care a lot when a foregner calls them english to their face, but are pobably too polite to gat angry and just chalk it up to igorance.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:14:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd like to think that the Scots and Welsh are more generous than that. (NB The Irish never get called english, they aren't even British).

Yes, they'll call the english on it, practically every time and with good reason. But, as I said, it is largely a domestic squabble and shouldn't concern non-natives.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:21:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Two hours later and this topic is all over the place...

You know, my off-hand comments gear up interesting discussion faster than my scrupulously scalped diaries.

Lesson to self: Nothing is mere. Nothing is mere. Repeat ten times, have kiwi.

by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I normally wouldn't be participating so much at this time of day, but I had the stupid idea of trying to cook chick peas to make hummus, this morning. I started at 9am, thinking "it's going to take a while" but not actually realizing that it would. I'm just eating now, and it's definitely not hummus (more like half-cooked chick peas that go crunch crunch under the teeth)

(I mean to say by this that I normally work on a full stomach - I know that digestion hinders cognition but I like feeling reassured stomach-wise, call it an animal instinct ... so for me confident half-cognition is more important that insecure full-cognition.)

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:05:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're supposed to soak chick peas for at least a day before you cook 'em.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The funny part is that I actually know this. I've repeatedly failed at cooking chick peas.

It's because I am a rebel when it comes to cooking. When someone tells me "you have to respect the cooking time" or "you have to put salt in the water" or whatever, I always feel like doing the opposite. When I have a curry dinner with friends in Paris, and two of us are doing the cooking, the other person follows a strict recipe and comes out with a perfect dish, while I just mix all sorts of spices in random fashion and always end up with a stew.

But my chick peas this morning, and my stews in general, taste good. It's just that they never end up being the dish that I announce beforehand.

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:14:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the worst mix I ever did (but which still tasted good) was lentils with potatoes and celery all mixed in one big stew. Then again I have eaten raw pasta with nutella when I was a (smoked-out) student ...
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
afew if you're reading this thread, let me tell you that the taboulé I suggested to bring at the ET meet-up on saturday will probably be purchased. I tried making taboulé once and it ended up being a couscous-seed stew with large chunks of tomatoes and what not.
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am reading, and can happily make taboulé if you like.

Am about to put up a diary re the meet.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you soak the chick-peas over night?
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:13:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alas, no. I thought I could beat the cooking books this time too (see my comment above), and failed again.

But it tasted alright, it just wasn't hummous. Anyhow I knew this would fail, as I don't have a robot mixer (but I started looking at online prices for one as soon as I started eating my peas)

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A decent hand-held one is probably better than the free-standing ones unless you already know you want to use it a lot.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:20:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah I was wondering about that, I noticed there were handheld types. Do these actually work alright? Do they produce fine stews?
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:21:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They work quite well and they're much less hassle to clean up - make sure you get one that allows you remove the blade section for washing. You can use the hand-held in pots, cutting down the washing up even more!

I have a big KitchenAid free-standing liquidiser that I seldom use for things like hummus - if you're working with small quantities the handheld is better - you don't waste so much on the sides and nooks and crannies of the mixer.

Now, for crushing ice or making smoothies - or to pick a random example, for making iced coffee -  the free-standing one is the only way to go.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian: Secular Turks and Islamists fight for supremacy in the courts and streets

As Ankara begins entry negotiations, attempts are being made to sabotage its chances

When it comes to negotiating the treacherous faultlines of Turkey's fast road to modernity, chewing gum and garlic can make a dangerous cocktail. As Veysel Dalci, a leader of the governing party of pragmatic Islamists in Ordu on the Black Sea, stepped up to place a wreath at a monument to Ataturk - Father of the Turks - on Sovereignty Day, he was seen chewing gum.

The Turkish prosecution service went into action and Mr Dalci was charged with the crime of insulting Mustafa Kemal, better known as Ataturk, a national hero. Mr Dalci, who was held for 48 hours before being bailed, is awaiting trial and could face three years in prison.

A victim of the power struggle between defenders of the secularist state and the ruling AKP party of religious conservatives, Mr Dalci initially blamed his Sovereignty Day ordeal on an excess of grilled garlic the night before. He needed the gum to clear his breath. But then he denied chewing gum at all.

An AKP deputy leader, Dengir Mir Mehmet Firat, said: "How can you arrest someone for this? Let's assume he was chewing. It's not a crime, though it might be bad behaviour."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:56:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
where you can be arrested, and rightly so, for having "bad taste."

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 03:33:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I thought chewing garlic was compulsory in France.

[/snark]

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:31:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That and chewing dried frog leg sticks. [/supersnark]
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:34:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And little bags of snail crackling.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Financial Times: Prodi pressed on labour costs plan

Italian industrialists criticised the centre-left government of Romano Prodi, prime minister, at the weekend for proposing that a radical plan to cut labour costs should not cover all businesses.

"The cut should be for everybody," Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, leader of Confindustria, Italy's employers' association, told the Financial Times.

"Selection is something that is done by the market. We should not be afraid of the market. If some companies don't use the cut in labour costs in the proper way, they will close," he said.

Mr Prodi's proposal to cut labour costs by 5 percentage points, or €10bn ($13bn, £7bn), in his first year in office was the centrepiece of the economic programme that he put to voters before his general election victory.

Mr Prodi said the plan would improve the competitiveness of Italian companies, many of which are struggling on world markets because of high taxes, low productivity growth and insufficient spending on research and development.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 01:05:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...why industrialists spit feathers, while "the business world" welcomed the idea? I can think of reasons why the business world would not sputter... What differs the industrialist from the business world?
by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 04:24:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My best guess: "industry" is labour-intensive (manufacturing) and "the Business world" just shuffles paper back and forth?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:04:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Business has nothing to do with industry, really.  Industry is about building things and employing people and whatnot, while business is about financial parasitism through means of fictitious capital and political leverage.
by Zwackus on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:21:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Selection is something that is done by the market.

There you have it, the fundamental misunderstanding of the principle of natural selection permeated by marketista economists and businessmen. "The market" is not some mythical agent with an existence of its own, it is a theatre of business defined by the circumstances. Which do selection. Government policy to favor small business or renewable energies is just as much a defining circumstance as the rule of major companies in a 'deregulated' setup.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:22:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does anyone know exactly what's being proposed here?

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Financial Times: Hungary's PM plans 'first aid' for economy prior to surgery

Ferenc Gyurcsany, Hungary's prime minister, has vowed to slash the country's budget deficit by raising taxes and fighting waste in the public sector.

Corporate tax will be raised from 16 per cent to 20 per cent. Income tax, value added tax and social security contributions for employers and employees will also rise.

The austerity package is a 2½-year plan to tackle a budget deficit forecast to reach 9.5 per cent of gross domestic product this year, overshooting the 4.7 per cent target.

Mr Gyurcsany, who launched the plan on Saturday, told the Financial Times that tax increases were a short-term measure that would be followed by more important efforts to rein in public spending that had spun out of control, partly as a result of election spending promises.

"The steps for this year are what I would call first aid," he said. "We are not just cutting expenses but we are trying to reconstruct the system itself."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 01:15:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Gyurcsány government also plans 'reforms' in the health sector, in education, and public transport. So I am not happy.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:16:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi DoDo,

Can you tell me what the current status of the health reforms is? It might be useful for some research I am doing. So as not to tax you too much, I'll just ask? Are there concrete proposals yet? I'd heard that a multi-insurance setup was proposed, but is it looking likely? Have any other policies been outlined?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:39:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no concrete proposals yet, and I suspect they won't be concretised for some time. But multi-insurance setup is the direction, and it is a mad idea.

I may do a write-up for you during the week.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:50:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this!
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:10:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IHT:  Russia plays energy card vs. Western investment

Russian, American, European and Japanese officials are negotiating over whether Russia should be allowed greater freedom to invest in utilities, pipelines, natural gas facilities and other infrastructure in the United States and Europe.

In a draft declaration intended to be offered for endorsement at a Group of 8 summit meeting this summer in St. Petersburg, broadened Russian access is endorsed for approval as long as it is in accordance with market principles.

Paired with that principle in the summit meeting draft is something the West wants: greater access by foreign investors in Russia's energy industry, which has made Russia into one of the biggest oil and natural gas producers in the world.

The maneuvering in advance of the summit meeting comes at a time of rising prices, concern about future energy supplies and anxieties in the West over Russia's use of its energy industry to expand its political influence in its region and around the world.

In January, Russia cut off of natural gas shipments to Ukraine during a price dispute, shutting down deliveries in Europe. That move was seen as an effort to punish Ukraine, long dominated by Russia, for its political independence.

More recently, Vice President Dick Cheney and other senior U.S. officials have rebuked Russia for its increased state takeover of the energy sector, its crackdown of political dissent and what Americans say is an effort to muscle out Western investments in oil and gas pipelines in the Caspian Sea.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 01:28:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are ... "anxieties in the West over Russia's use of its energy industry to expand its political influence in its region and around the world."

What astonishing behavior!

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 04:25:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because there are no other superpowers that try to act like that in the world, so why should russia be allowed to get away with it.

{Two sarcastic posts in succession - be positive}

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian: Britain's ports poised to fall into foreign hands

· US bank close to sealing agreed bid for AB Ports
· Sale to consortium will cause political row

The vast majority of British ports - including Southampton, Immingham and Port Talbot - are poised to fall into foreign hands with an agreed bid from a consortium led by Goldman Sachs, the American bankers, close to completion.

The £2.4bn deal could be announced as early as this week as Goldman Sachs has completed due diligence on the 21 docks owned and operated by Associated British Ports.

The move is bound to trigger further political soul-searching about the UK's vital infrastructure being controlled from abroad, particularly after last week's agreement to sell the airports group BAA to the Spanish and P&O's takeover by Dubai Ports World (DPW). Goldman had tried to acquire BAA but lost out to Spain's Ferrovial. Neither Goldman Sachs nor AB Ports was willing to comment last night on the state of the talks but industry sources confirmed that a deal was close to being signed.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 01:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand globalisation and capitalism, why would any country want its ports to belong to another country?
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 02:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's called "profit," and it knows no boundaries.
by gradinski chai on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 02:22:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Competition. Boost. Markets. Bolster. Reform. Grow. Less red tape. Dynamism. Freedom.

Get with the message, Frenchie.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 02:29:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Nice ports you have there. It would be a shame if anything - you know - happened to them..."
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:33:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
MosNews.Com: U.S. Military Leave Ukraine After Mass Anti-NATO Protests


About 200 U.S. reservists, whose arrival in Crimea in southern Ukraine sparked anti-NATO protests, will leave by Monday, but planned military exercises may still take place, Ukraine's navy quoted by AFP has said.

...

The contentious atmosphere in Ukraine has led to the postponement of another joint military exercise between Ukraine and Britain.

The Ukrainian defense ministry said Thursday "in the current situation" Kiev and London had decided "unfortunately" to postpone maneuvers which were scheduled to start June 12. No new date has been set.

by blackhawk on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 02:06:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Regnum: Ukrainian Foreign Office: Declaration on Ukrainian state sovereignty is a myth


Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine urged the national mass media "not to disseminate the myth of the neutral political status of Ukraine." As Deputy Head of the NATO Department at the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry Vladislav Yasniuk claimed at a special seminar for journalists on the issues of Atlantic integration, "the Constitution does not contain a word on the neutral status, that is why we are urging the media to refrain from propagating the myth," REGNUM correspondent in Kiev reported on June 9.

"We are facing the situation when information about NATO circulated by the media does not conform to the reality," Yasniuk warned. "One of the most popular ones is the myth on Ukraine's neutral political status. There is no neutral status, actually, that is a myth, because the statement on the neutral status is only mentioned once in the official documents, in the Declaration on the State Sovereignty of Ukraine of 1991. That is the only case when the neutral status is mentioned."

by blackhawk on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 02:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a way to convince Ukraine not to join NATO?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:05:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With 60+% population against joining NATO, it would not take much of convincing. As for political leadership, they got a political capital (15% percent of the vote in parliamentary elections, in which I don't count Timoshenko block, who are more of the opportunists) to spend, so the show will go on.
by blackhawk on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:16:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kommersant: Russia's Tourists Don't Go to Crimea on NATO Fears

The demand for tours to Crimea sank 40 percent in Russia first week of June. Tourist operators blame the decline on mass rallies staged there against the Sea Breeze exercise of NATO in Feodosia. Nevertheless, the record-low drop has hardly surprised the tourist firms. In Crimea, which is the Black Sea resort once owned by Russia but currently belonging to Ukraine, both hotels and individuals tend to hike prices by 25 percent each year without improving either the service or the lodging.
TV news about protest rallies prompt a tourist to think the vacations could be threatened in Crimea and Sochi would be better, representatives of tourist firms explain. "The people don't attempt to go into the problem and regard the peninsula ultra-hazardous," specified Natalia Romanova, executive director at Orpheus Co.

The actual situation is even worse. Tourist operators speak about the 40-percent drop in public, but in private, they acknowledge the decline is much more serious, said SNP General Director Andrey Golovin. "Some firms put down the seven-fold reduction in number of those willing to spend vacations in Crimea in June or July."

Crimea's Resorts and Tourism Ministry claimed some 1.014 million Russians visited the peninsula past summer, only 1.4 percent up on year. At the same time, the share of Russians in the overall tourist flow to Crimea lowered from 42 percent to 35 percent past season.

by blackhawk on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 02:10:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Baccalaureate examinations: The degradation of the level of expression in the French language is a source of headaches for paper graders (not sure if this is the right term, I mean "teachers who read student copies and assign grades").

ps: you know how much I dislike mobile phones? I would ban them from use inside schools, I think SMSes are partially responsible for this expression & spelling degradation ... but then again, this is a conversation we've had here on ET before, and someone argued that there was no reason to believe that SMS style was any less good than correct grammar/spelling, and that langauges evolved anyways ...

Libération (in French, partially translated here to make commenting possible ) - Paper grayderz tested on there scillz of the language it is being they are

Brushing aside any apocalyptic discourse on the decline of France's heritage, they sometimes admit to feeling scared and powerless. Benoît, 34 years old, professor of Philosophy in Paris, explais: "The philosophy dissertation (examination) requires a level of language that is not necessarily shared by all. And, the less you master the language, the less access you have to its meaning." And philosophy, only taught in the final year in high school, and implicating the manipulation of concepts, reveals itself as out of reach for students that are weak in the literary field. "Sometimes, I simply do not understand what the student meant", says this teacher, "and I ask myself if I have to grade the content, meaning the philosophical argumentation, or stick to requiring a minimum level of expression"

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 02:45:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From conversations with my mother, who teaches Spanish language and literature in High School, I came to the startling [to me] and scary [to me] conclusion years ago that conceptual thought, which we take for granted in "western" civilization is a cultural construct and could be effectively lost in a couple of generations.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:02:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You may say this, but I have, to a small degree, acquired my ability towards literary conceptual thought in later life. Pretty much after my 25th birthday when I stopped reading tabloids and started reading newspapers.

I wouldn't deny that I have struggled at times to get my ideas to coalesce. It's not that the ideas aren't there, but I lack any form of training in marshalling them into a coherent argument.Yes, it is frustrating.

It's why my diaries are so few and often trivial in nature and seem happiest with the short sharp shock of commenting. One idea, one argument, 2 - 3 paragraphs at most.

However, that said, I used to frequently cross argumentative swords with a friend who had a good degree in Philosophy and taught english & philosophy at 12th grade level. what used to frustrate me was the intellectual dishonesty she brought into her discussions, legalistic arguments that were intended to win competitively at the expense of expanding comprehension. She viewed these not as exchanges of views intended to widen discussion, but as mere challenges to be seen off.

She used to justify it with "of course I cheat, you're better at this than I am". So, just cos you can frame your thoughts well, doesn't mean those thoughts were worth the effort of framing.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:16:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You just gave the Socratic critique of the sophists.

When I say "conceptual thought" I don't mean "literary conceptual thought". I am, after all, a mathematical physicist.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You just gave the Socratic critique of the sophists

I am, after all, a mathematical physicist.

Methinks you doth protest too much. Somebody who even knows what a sophist is, let alone what a socratic response to them might be, has got a good grounding in the formulation of of literary argument.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:56:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I did get a perfect score in the History of Philosophy paper when I took the university access examinations.

But I do protest too much because I was referring to conceptual though outside of the literary sense.

By the way, what the french call litteraire is arts in English, I think, or more generally humanities.

When I was in my last year in high school, two people came from the university to give us a presentation about the access examinations. It turns out they were husband and wife, him a mathematician and she from the humanities. At one point she said something to the effect that "of course" writing well was not that important for a math exam. You should have seen the man's face.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:00:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Goes back to my argument a couple of weeks ago that science is not viewed as an intellectual discipline. You can study arts and be respected even if you can't do basic arithmetic. However, whatever your achievements in science, you can never be an intellectual until you understand literature, history and art.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:15:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the UK you don't get taught much about any of those.

The idea of teaching philosophy to 18 year olds would make a lot of heads explode here. What possible relevance could philosophy have to the corporate job market? (And so on.)

And yes, a lot of what we take for granted intellectually is socially maintained and not intrinsic. And that makes it terrifylngly fragile.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:27:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No time ti translate this editorial...

El Pais: Vía Royal (12-06-2006)

Francia necesitaba salir de su sopor político. Ségolène Royal, aspirante a candidata de la izquierda socialista a la presidencia de la República, lo está consiguiendo poco a poco. Se ha apoderado de la agenda de la seguridad ciudadana proponiendo que los menores delincuentes puedan ir a internados o a centros bajo tutela militar. De paso, ha considerado un error la supresión del servicio militar y propuesto instaurar en su lugar un servicio cívico obligatorio para todos los chicos y chicas. Ha rechazado el "patriotismo económico" del primer ministro Dominique de Villepin. Su última embestida ha sido para atacar la semana de las 35 horas -bandera de la izquierda en los últimos años, que la derecha sólo ha retocado-, por considerar que no sólo no ha creado el empleo buscado, sino que su exceso de flexibilidad ha dañado a las clases bajas.

Ségolène Royal se adentra así en un camino político muy al estilo de la tercera vía de Tony Blair, a quien dice admirar y con quien comparte una cierta vena autoritaria. Sus propuestas en materia de seguridad -un terreno en el que la izquierda siempre se ha sentido incómoda- han recibido un amplio apoyo en la opinión pública, no menor entre los votantes socialistas que entre los de Le Pen o los seguidores del actual ministro del Interior, Nicolas Sarkozy, la personalidad a batir en la carrera al Elíseo y cuyo monopolio sobre el debate sobre la seguridad quiere romper Royal.

...



guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:31:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's pretty much what I think, though we could do without the sempiternal reference to her supposed admiration for Blair.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:51:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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