He's in Toulouse: Britain's internal vanities are of no useful concern whatsoever, except for amusement purposes. keep to the Fen Causeway
I said "no offence" by which I mean that I understood he had no reason to think there's more to it than vanity, on which I disagree with you, even though I am not British. I am as bold as I am ignorant, as you know. guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
There is something euphemistically known as The Troubles where people got blown up to bits for "Britain's internal vanities".
N Ireland is not in Britain.
England = England
England + Wales = Britain
Britain + Scotland + Scottish islands = Great Britain
Great Britain + N Ireland + lots of offshore islands like Isle of Man & Channel Islands = United Kingdom
As for what the Ulster troubles were about, it's complicated to the point that if you were to go around Ulster and ask 100 people what the issues really were, you'd probably get 101 contradictory answers. However, most people in Britain were of the opinion that it had little to do with us, even if that was a little self-serving and evasive. keep to the Fen Causeway
Sort of like Mallorca and Menorca (Mallor = Larger, Menor = Smaller). guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
Historically "Great Britain" is so named by contrast with the smaller Britain, Brittany, called Armor(ica) until Britons migrated there as the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc, advanced into what is now England (C6 and on).
OTOH, you're quite right that the full national title is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
The Cross of St George currently flying from practically every car in England isn't really the English flag at all. It is instead the symbol of English subjugation of Wales under Edward II as it was his banner and was flown from all of the castles built to enforce occupation as a symbol of his rule. It has been the flag of Britain, as in the construct England and Wales, ever since.
As Wales has a flag, it has become a de facto flag of England, 'cept of course it isn't.
So when scotland was finally defeated Britain became Great Britain.
And I wouldn't trust wikipedia one byte. It's just the rubbish last input. keep to the Fen Causeway
Have you got a copy of Whitaker's Almanac handy? --any edition should serve. Look in there for the reference to the formal "legal" name for Britain. I bet you'll find it in the headers to its summary info on various nations of the world. Most general almanacs list the nations of the world and state the formal names--as well as specifying their components!
Britain = England /*, Wales, Scotland, & the highjacked bits of Eire-- [England: /*excluding of course a recalcitrant bit surrounded by England and going by the name of "Yorkshire"].
;^) "In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge
conventional long form: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; note - Great Britain includes England, Scotland, and Wales conventional short form: United Kingdom abbreviation: UK
Many references to common usages, many of which had Britain as another name for the entity 'Great Britain'. However, the word unofficially seemed to crop up at inconvenient times in all these definitions. Which led me to being quite confused.
Maybe there isn't a hard and fast definition as I expected, just accepted usages of which none have ever been officially defined.
In which case I would accept that mine is an uncommon set of definitions and will stand corrected. But I don't think I'm officially wrong either. keep to the Fen Causeway
Britain 1. a. The proper name of the whole island containing England, Wales, and Scotland, with their dependencies; more fully called Great Britain; now also used for the British state or empire as a whole. After the OE. period, *Britain was used only as a historical term, until about the time of Henry VIII and Edward VI, when it came again into practical politics in connexion with the efforts made to unite England and Scotland; in 1604 James I was proclaimed `King of Great Britain'; and this name was adopted for the United Kingdom, at the Union in 1707. After that event, South Britain and North Britain are frequent in Acts of Parl. for England and Scotland respectively: the latter is still in occasional (chiefly postal) use. (So West Britain , humorously or polemically for `Ireland'.) Greater Britain is a modern rhetorical phrase for `Great Britain and the colonies', `the British Empire', brought into vogue in 1868.
I know the official use of "Great Britain" (= England + Wales + Scotland) dates back to 1603, when James VI of Scotland also became James I of England (and Wales). The actual union of the kingdoms (of England(Wales) and Scotland) came a century later, with the Act of Union of 1707.
a855 O.E. Chron. Introd., Gaius Iulius se Casere ærest Romana Breten-lond δesohte. c890 K. ÆLFRED Bæda I. i, Breoton is ealond. 1297 R. GLOUC. 22 And aftur Brut ys owne nome he clepede hit Breteyne. 82 Bretayne. a1375 Joseph Arim. (Vernon MS.) 232 {Th}e Auenturus of Brutayne. c1428 Arthur 265 Maximian kyng of Bretaingne Conquered al France and Almayne. c1500 Lyfe Jos. Armathy (W. de W.) lf. 4 Ioseph of Aramathia..came in to grete Brytayne. c1505 DUNBAR `Schir for {Ygh}our Grace' 11 Fairest and best In Bartane. c1515 Prophecy of Bertlington, The French wife shal beare the Sonne Shal weild al Bretane to the sea. 1542 HEN. VIII Declar. Scots Bivb, Brutus of whom the realme than callyd Brytayn toke fyrst that name. 1547 J. HARRISON Exhort. Scottes Hvj, Ye names of both subiectes & realmes ceassing, & to be changed into ye name of Britain & Britons, as it was at first, & yet stil ought to be. 1548 N. BODRUGAN Epitome Avb, England the only supreme seat of thempire of greate Briteigne. 1604 Procl. Jas. I, 24 Oct., King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland. 1630 WADSWORTH Sp. Pilgr. vii. 69 His Majesty of great Britaine. 1665 MANLEY Grotius' Low-C. Warrs 779 King James..obliterating the names of Scots and English, would have both to be united and grow up into one Kingdome..to be called Britain. 1667 DRYDEN Ann. Mirab. Ded., To the Metropolis of Great Britain, the most renowned and late flourishing city of London. 1707 Act of Union xi. §1 That the two Kingdoms of England and Scotland shall..be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain. 1710 Act 9 Anne vi. §4 To export and transport from Great Britain into Ireland. 1718 Act 5 Geo. I, xi. §16 The importation of Tar and Pitch from North-Britain into any part of South-Britain. 1729 Act 2 Geo. II, xxxv. §12 In several Parts of North Britain commonly called Scotland. Ibid. Brought..to that part of Great Britain called England. 1740 THOMSON `Rule Britannia', When Britain first, at Heaven's command, Arose from out the azure main. c1800 DIBDIN `I sailed from the Downs', So adieu to the white cliffs of Britain. 1832 Act 2 & 3 Will. IV, lxxv. §1 In that part of the United Kingdom called Great Britain, and..that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland. 1868 C. W. DILKE (title) Greater Britain: Travels 1866-67.
Having taken a look at Chaucer (late C14) I may add that he (or his characters in the Canterbury Tales, who use different idioms according to rank, regional origin, and personal foibles) uses the following:
Britaigne, Britayne, Briteyne, to mean either Britain or Brittany (which he also calls Armorik(e): "In Armorik, that called is Britayne" Franklin's Tale, l.1);
Bret, Briton, to mean Welshman;
Britoun, Briton, to mean Breton.
No use of (for example) "Grete Britayne" to mean "Great Britain".
ps: I've observed this issue of "cultural sub-nationalism" a lot since I went to Sri Lanka, and since then I try not to take it seriously. I landed in SL convinced that there were the Sinhalese, and there were the Tamils ... but the very first good friend I made there had a Tamil father and a Sinhalese mother ... confusion enough to make me feel like burning my books about the history of both cultures.
I am however aware of sensitivity on this type of issue so I do say British instead of English. However in France people commonly say "les Anglais" (the English) to refer to Great Britain as a whole.
And actually I know what's behind this sensitivity too: in all the years I've spent abroad, people I'd meet would often say "ah you're French, so you're from Paris huh?". This would sometimes make me pout.
[/i'm actually snarking, I like the fact that there is a Scott & Welsh team in rugby ... but we should also be allowed to have Southwest & Rest-of-France French teams, being different rugby cultures entirely]
Ireland have one rugby team, but two football teams.
The Englaish cricket team is actually officially the MCC (Marylebone cricket club) to get around the fact that Welsh and Scots (and nowadays just about anybody else) can play for them.
West Indies is one cricket team and god knows how many football teams. keep to the Fen Causeway
It's easier to build and support football sides. Look at how many pro clubs London has.
Initially there were two unions both founded in 1874. The Irish Football Union had jurisdiction over Clubs in Leinster, Munster and parts of Ulster; the Northern Football Union of Ireland controlled the Belfast area. The IRFU was formed in 1879 as an amalgamation of the two different organisations and branches were formed in Leinster, Munster and Ulster. The Connacht Branch was formed in 1886.(Wikipedia)
The IRFU predates partition... it was the soccer crowd that split:
Upon the partition of Ireland in 1921 the FAIFS (now the FAI) was set up to regulate the game in the Irish Free State (now the Republic of Ireland). Those behind the FAIFS believed that soccer should be regulated by a federation based in the Free State capital Dublin. The IFA's supporters argued that the federation should be based where the game was mainly played - Ulster and its principal city Belfast. Both federations claimed to represent the whole of the island and both competed as Ireland and both picked players from the two rival leagues - which also split at this time. (Wikipedia)
Which endorses Helen's view I guess: the upper and middle class sport stayed as one because it would have been dominated by rich Protestant or Anglo-Irish and the working class sport split over politics.
While I didn't go to a "rugby school", my father played at some level in London in the sixties...
But then again maybe working class sports are so much a way for the working class to be heard that they don't want to share the glory of being heard with distant others?
Be careful what you wish for Alex, you might not like the outcomes.
There were plans to devolve power to a collection of Regional Assemblies around the country, which would be more or less equivalent to a local parliament, and would deal with local issues in much the same way that the Welsh and Scottish assemblies do already.
There was a stirring lack of interest from most of the regions about this. So although there's a Campaign for an English Parliamen, as Wikipedia says 'politically it remains a minor issue.'
