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Well I can't say that I am too familiar with all the historical events that made things the way they are in the UK, but I am familiar with the way things went in France, where Breton/Corsican/Alsatian/Basque "nationalism" is now marginal at best, after decades of being crushed by the all-crushing French Nation. Regionalism is still strong in these places, but then even Toulousains and Marseillais are proud of their identity and of their "region" ...

ps: I've observed this issue of "cultural sub-nationalism" a lot since I went to Sri Lanka, and since then I try not to take it seriously. I landed in SL convinced that there were the Sinhalese, and there were the Tamils ... but the very first good friend I made there had a Tamil father and a Sinhalese mother ... confusion enough to make me feel like burning my books about the history of both cultures.

I am however aware of sensitivity on this type of issue so I do say British instead of English. However in France people commonly say "les Anglais" (the English) to refer to Great Britain as a whole.

And actually I know what's behind this sensitivity too: in all the years I've spent abroad, people I'd meet would often say "ah you're French, so you're from Paris huh?". This would sometimes make me pout.

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:34:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, IMHO
  1. The Prince of Wales (or his heir) would do good to become the first Prince of Wales in history to learn the Welsh language.
  2. "England and Wales" should be broken up as an administrative unit, into England and Wales.
  3. There should be separate English and British parliaments.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:38:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
4. The United Kingdom should field only one team in sports tournaments (and the six nations tournament would then become the four nations tournament)

[/i'm actually snarking, I like the fact that there is a Scott & Welsh team in rugby ... but we should also be allowed to have Southwest & Rest-of-France French teams, being different rugby cultures entirely]

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:43:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It probably didn't even register in your radar, but there was an attempt to get a Catalan field hockey team recognized internationally. They were even allowed to play in the international 'B' division for a season and routed every one of their opponents. Then Aznar's government heavily lobbied at the international body governing hockey and got their bid rejected.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's interesting that in middle class sports like rugby and cricket, aggregation is acceptable. But in working class sports such as football it isn't.

Ireland have one rugby team, but two football teams.

The Englaish cricket team is actually officially the MCC (Marylebone cricket club) to get around the fact that Welsh and Scots (and nowadays just about anybody else) can play for them.

West Indies is one cricket team and god knows how many football teams.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right in a sense, but the reason is that rugby and cricket are not played or supported by vast numbers of people. There are not many Rugby Union players in Ireland (Colman will tell us there aren't any), and a deliberate effort was made to bring the North and the Republic together to increase the chances of fielding a competitive international side. Something similar applies to cricket -- the Scots and Welsh don't play it much and iirc the only first-class county side outside England is Glamorgan...

It's easier to build and support football sides. Look at how many pro clubs London has.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:24:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Initially there were two unions both founded in 1874. The Irish Football Union had jurisdiction over Clubs in Leinster, Munster and parts of Ulster; the Northern Football Union of Ireland controlled the Belfast area. The IRFU was formed in 1879 as an amalgamation of the two different organisations and branches were formed in Leinster, Munster and Ulster. The Connacht Branch was formed in 1886.(Wikipedia)

The IRFU predates partition... it was the soccer crowd that split:

Upon the partition of Ireland in 1921 the FAIFS (now the FAI) was set up to regulate the game in the Irish Free State (now the Republic of Ireland). Those behind the FAIFS believed that soccer should be regulated by a federation based in the Free State capital Dublin. The IFA's supporters argued that the federation should be based where the game was mainly played - Ulster and its principal city Belfast. Both federations claimed to represent the whole of the island and both competed as Ireland and both picked players from the two rival leagues - which also split at this time.
(Wikipedia)

Which endorses Helen's view I guess: the upper and middle class sport stayed as one because it would have been dominated by rich Protestant or Anglo-Irish and the working class sport split over politics.

While I didn't go to a "rugby school", my father played  at some level in London in the sixties...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, I always wanted to ask someone (not you specifically but anyone in the know): how do the political divisions map onto the North Irish football team?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:51:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No idea. I'm guessing that Northern Protestants/Unionists don't have much time for the Republic team, but I'm not sure of the attitude of the Nationalists.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:08:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the historical detail -- I didn't know it went back that far -- but this still seems to me to beg the question. Why should a working-class sport be subject to disunion? Is there something proper to the working-class essence that makes it so, or is it intervention from above (ie upper classes), or is it (as I suggest) that football has the numbers (players, supporters) to make division possible and therefore envisageable?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:52:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would you said below seems quite valid (just look at the West Indies ... each island has so few cricket players - precisely because it's a middle class sport - that they have to gang up).

But then again maybe working class sports are so much a way for the working class to be heard that they don't want to share the glory of being heard with distant others?

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:58:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have expected the upper and middle classes to be much closer personally than the working classes: they would have gone to the same - or at least overlapping - schools, the parties, the universities. They would have done business with each other. Working class Protestant Belfast and Catholic Dublin would hardly ever have met. That wouldn't be true of the richer classes.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:05:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's see, gruff English pack, slick Welsh backs and some Scottish bruisers sprinkled in.

Be careful what you wish for Alex, you might not like the outcomes.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Prince of Wales does speak Welsh. He was taught to be fluent as a pre-condition by his mother for accepting the title. He was probably the first ever to be required to do so.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He does? First news I have of that. Makes me like the guy some more.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:55:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also makes me like the Queen a little more for the requirement.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There should be separate English and British parliaments.

There were plans to devolve power to a collection of Regional Assemblies around the country, which would be more or less equivalent to a local parliament, and would deal with local issues in much the same way that the Welsh and Scottish assemblies do already.

There was a stirring lack of interest from most of the regions about this. So although there's a Campaign for an English Parliamen, as Wikipedia says 'politically it remains a minor issue.'

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:20:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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