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There is something euphemistically known as The Troubles where people got blown up to bits for "Britain's internal vanities".

N Ireland is not in Britain.

England = England

England  + Wales = Britain

Britain + Scotland + Scottish islands = Great Britain

Great Britain + N Ireland  + lots of offshore islands like Isle of Man & Channel Islands = United Kingdom

As for what the Ulster troubles were about, it's complicated to the point that if you were to go around Ulster and ask 100 people what the issues really were, you'd probably  get 101 contradictory answers. However, most people in Britain were of the opinion that it had little to do with us, even if that was a little self-serving and evasive.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:46:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for clarifying the terminology. I will from now on never use "Britain" to mean "Great Britain" or "UK".

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:49:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Same here, I had no idea! the horror, the horror :)
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:52:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's already unnerving enough that Brittany and Britain both translate as Bretaña in Spanish.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does Great Britain then becomes Gran Bretaña...? I see a traumatic youth in development...
by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:06:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and an hijo de la Gran Bretaña is a son of a bitch.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:07:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hehe and por supuesto means poor bastard
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:09:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are there any children still born in Spain named Bretaña...? Linguistical spite in Spanish too, eh?
by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I finally understood your questions. No, Brittany is a girl's name that has no translation.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, if Great Britain and Ireland are "The British Isles", and Great Britain is "Great Britain", surely Ireland must be "Little Britain"?

Sort of like Mallorca and Menorca (Mallor = Larger, Menor = Smaller).

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:01:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha, why don't you find an Irishman and suggest that. How about Colman ? I'm sure he'd only ban you from the site for a few months.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the issue of things "not having to do with whomever", I'll just quote Terence: Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto, which just means that, humans being curious creatures, we like to stick out noses where they don't belong.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:53:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to recall during the Ulster troubles people were blown also up to bits in the English heartland?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but that's what I meant by complicated. There were all sorts of enemies being dealt with and guns were being pointed in all directions.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was addressing the "evasive" part of your comment.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:09:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't want to spoil the fun, but have you got a reference for that "England + Wales = Britain" ? I've never heard of it, and Wikipedia seems to disagree with you. "Britain" is just used for short, in place of "Great Britain".

Historically "Great Britain" is so named by contrast with the smaller Britain, Brittany, called Armor(ica) until Britons migrated there as the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc, advanced into what is now England (C6 and on).

OTOH, you're quite right that the full national title is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:08:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, that explains Bretaña = Brittany.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:11:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no reference except to say that it is a common assumption.

The Cross of St George currently flying from practically every car in England isn't really the English flag at all. It is instead the symbol of English subjugation of Wales under Edward II as it was his banner and was flown from all of the castles built to enforce occupation as a symbol of his rule.  It has been the flag of Britain, as in the construct England and Wales, ever since.

As Wales has a flag, it has become a de facto flag of England, 'cept of course it isn't.

So when scotland was finally defeated Britain became Great Britain.

And I wouldn't trust wikipedia one byte. It's just the rubbish last input.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:45:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 Helen,

 Have you got a copy of Whitaker's Almanac handy? --any edition should serve.  Look in there for the reference to the formal "legal" name for Britain.  I bet you'll find it in the headers to its summary info on various nations of the world.  Most general almanacs list the nations of the world and state the formal names--as well as specifying their components!

 Britain = England /*, Wales, Scotland, & the highjacked bits of Eire-- [England: /*excluding of course a recalcitrant bit surrounded by England and going by the name of "Yorkshire"].

 ;^)

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:16:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the CIA World Factbook says
conventional long form: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; note - Great Britain includes England, Scotland, and Wales
conventional short form: United Kingdom
abbreviation: UK


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

 Since when does the C.I.A. get anything right?

    ;^)

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, sorry I don't have Whittaker's. However a browse of the web was illuminating.

Many references to common usages, many of which had Britain as another name for the entity 'Great Britain'. However, the word unofficially seemed to crop up at inconvenient times in all these definitions. Which led me to being quite confused.

Maybe there isn't a hard and fast definition as I expected, just accepted usages of which none have ever been officially defined.

In which case I would accept that mine is an uncommon set of definitions and will stand corrected. But I don't think I'm officially wrong either.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What does the Oxford English Dictionnary say? It has the advantage that it gives you the earliest [known to Oxford] use of each meaning.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:37:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Osford English Dictionnary:
Britain 1. a. The proper name of the whole island containing England, Wales, and Scotland, with their dependencies; more fully called Great Britain; now also used for the British state or empire as a whole. After the OE. period, *Britain  was used only as a historical term, until about the time of Henry VIII and Edward VI, when it came again into practical politics in connexion with the efforts made to unite England and Scotland; in 1604 James I was proclaimed `King of Great Britain'; and this name was adopted for the United Kingdom, at the Union in 1707. After that event,  South Britain  and  North Britain  are frequent in Acts of Parl. for England and Scotland respectively: the latter is still in occasional (chiefly postal) use. (So  West Britain , humorously or polemically for `Ireland'.)  Greater Britain  is a modern rhetorical phrase for `Great Britain and the colonies', `the British Empire', brought into vogue in 1868.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish I had access to the OED (perhaps someone does). But, in the meanwhile, here's a useful page at answers.com that pulls together explanations from a number of sources.

I know the official use of "Great Britain" (= England + Wales + Scotland) dates back to 1603, when James VI of Scotland also became James I of England (and Wales). The actual union of the kingdoms (of England(Wales) and Scotland) came a century later, with the Act of Union of 1707.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do have access, but it's hideously clumsy to use as it involves logging on remotely to my old university account and using a text-only browser [the university library has an institutional subscription to the OED].

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, here are the quotations under Britain in the OED: (The things in {}-braces are non-latin letters I did not feel like finding html encodings for)
(No separate OED entry for Great Britain exists)

a855 O.E. Chron. Introd., Gaius Iulius se Casere ærest Romana Breten-lond δesohte.
c890 K. ÆLFRED Bæda I. i, Breoton is ealond.
1297 R. GLOUC. 22 And aftur Brut ys owne nome he clepede hit Breteyne. 82 Bretayne.
a1375 Joseph Arim. (Vernon MS.) 232 {Th}e Auenturus of Brutayne.
c1428 Arthur 265 Maximian kyng of Bretaingne Conquered al France and Almayne.
c1500 Lyfe Jos. Armathy (W. de W.) lf. 4 Ioseph of Aramathia..came in to grete Brytayne.
c1505 DUNBAR `Schir for {Ygh}our Grace' 11 Fairest and best In Bartane.
c1515 Prophecy of Bertlington, The French wife shal beare the Sonne Shal weild al Bretane to the sea.
1542 HEN. VIII Declar. Scots Bivb, Brutus of whom the realme than callyd Brytayn toke fyrst that name.
1547 J. HARRISON Exhort. Scottes Hvj, Ye names of both subiectes & realmes ceassing, & to be changed into ye name of Britain & Britons, as it was at first, & yet stil ought to be.
1548 N. BODRUGAN Epitome Avb, England the only supreme seat of thempire of greate Briteigne.
1604 Procl. Jas. I, 24 Oct., King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland.
1630 WADSWORTH Sp. Pilgr. vii. 69 His Majesty of great Britaine. 1665 MANLEY Grotius' Low-C. Warrs 779 King James..obliterating the names of Scots and English, would have both to be united and grow up into one Kingdome..to be called Britain.
1667 DRYDEN Ann. Mirab. Ded., To the Metropolis of Great Britain, the most renowned and late flourishing city of London.
1707 Act of Union xi. §1 That the two Kingdoms of England and Scotland shall..be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain.
1710 Act 9 Anne vi. §4 To export and transport from Great Britain into Ireland.
1718 Act 5 Geo. I, xi. §16 The importation of Tar and Pitch from North-Britain into any part of South-Britain.
1729 Act 2 Geo. II, xxxv. §12 In several Parts of North Britain commonly called Scotland. Ibid. Brought..to that part of Great Britain called England.
1740 THOMSON `Rule Britannia', When Britain first, at Heaven's command, Arose from out the azure main.
c1800 DIBDIN `I sailed from the Downs', So adieu to the white cliffs of Britain.
1832 Act 2 & 3 Will. IV, lxxv. §1 In that part of the United Kingdom called Great Britain, and..that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland.
1868 C. W. DILKE (title) Greater Britain: Travels 1866-67.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, someone!

Having taken a look at Chaucer (late C14) I may add that he (or his characters in the Canterbury Tales, who use different idioms according to rank, regional origin, and personal foibles) uses the following:

Britaigne, Britayne, Briteyne, to mean either Britain or Brittany (which he also calls Armorik(e): "In Armorik, that called is Britayne" Franklin's Tale, l.1);

Bret, Briton, to mean Welshman;

Britoun, Briton, to mean Breton.

No use of (for example) "Grete Britayne" to mean "Great Britain".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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