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From conversations with my mother, who teaches Spanish language and literature in High School, I came to the startling [to me] and scary [to me] conclusion years ago that conceptual thought, which we take for granted in "western" civilization is a cultural construct and could be effectively lost in a couple of generations.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:02:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You may say this, but I have, to a small degree, acquired my ability towards literary conceptual thought in later life. Pretty much after my 25th birthday when I stopped reading tabloids and started reading newspapers.

I wouldn't deny that I have struggled at times to get my ideas to coalesce. It's not that the ideas aren't there, but I lack any form of training in marshalling them into a coherent argument.Yes, it is frustrating.

It's why my diaries are so few and often trivial in nature and seem happiest with the short sharp shock of commenting. One idea, one argument, 2 - 3 paragraphs at most.

However, that said, I used to frequently cross argumentative swords with a friend who had a good degree in Philosophy and taught english & philosophy at 12th grade level. what used to frustrate me was the intellectual dishonesty she brought into her discussions, legalistic arguments that were intended to win competitively at the expense of expanding comprehension. She viewed these not as exchanges of views intended to widen discussion, but as mere challenges to be seen off.

She used to justify it with "of course I cheat, you're better at this than I am". So, just cos you can frame your thoughts well, doesn't mean those thoughts were worth the effort of framing.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:16:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You just gave the Socratic critique of the sophists.

When I say "conceptual thought" I don't mean "literary conceptual thought". I am, after all, a mathematical physicist.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You just gave the Socratic critique of the sophists

I am, after all, a mathematical physicist.

Methinks you doth protest too much. Somebody who even knows what a sophist is, let alone what a socratic response to them might be, has got a good grounding in the formulation of of literary argument.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:56:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I did get a perfect score in the History of Philosophy paper when I took the university access examinations.

But I do protest too much because I was referring to conceptual though outside of the literary sense.

By the way, what the french call litteraire is arts in English, I think, or more generally humanities.

When I was in my last year in high school, two people came from the university to give us a presentation about the access examinations. It turns out they were husband and wife, him a mathematician and she from the humanities. At one point she said something to the effect that "of course" writing well was not that important for a math exam. You should have seen the man's face.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:00:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Goes back to my argument a couple of weeks ago that science is not viewed as an intellectual discipline. You can study arts and be respected even if you can't do basic arithmetic. However, whatever your achievements in science, you can never be an intellectual until you understand literature, history and art.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:15:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the UK you don't get taught much about any of those.

The idea of teaching philosophy to 18 year olds would make a lot of heads explode here. What possible relevance could philosophy have to the corporate job market? (And so on.)

And yes, a lot of what we take for granted intellectually is socially maintained and not intrinsic. And that makes it terrifylngly fragile.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:27:50 AM EST
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