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How would you define free trade if not the free movement of capital and labor?
The free movement of goods, of course. Moving the products, not the factors of production.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 01:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the equipment (capital) that is necessary for manufacturing not also a good?  Once the knowledge was imported, and the business operations financed, it was inevitable that countries like China would take these sorts of jobs.  The fact that manufacturing was profitable when the factories were centered in Detroit and Frankfurt is, as you well know, irrelevant if the opportunity to produce at lower costs presents itself.  If that opportunity is not taken, the business will fail, because its competitors will certainly take those lower costs and crush it.  The jobs are, therefore, lost, anyway.  At least under a system with freedom of movement for the factors, there will be jobs for someone, and there will be competition to drive down prices, raise the aggregate welfare, and afford us the means to help workers who were slammed by outsourcing.

Capital can be seen as a good, as well.  That's why lenders are paid interest and shareholders are made partial owners.

There are always winners and losers on an issue like this.  I'm not going to deny that, nor should anyone else.  A world of free trade may hurt manufacturing workers in America and Europe, but a world without free trade will hurt workers and consumers elsewhere.  You've got to recognize both sides.  Simply taking the photo of the unemployed pillow maker and running with it might be great as a means to raising political capital and winning the Iowa primary for the Green Party, but it is, to put it mildly, misleading to take that photo and present it as though it accurately depicted the outcome for the world as a whole.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 05:09:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 A world of free trade may hurt manufacturing workers in America and Europe, but a world without free trade will hurt workers and consumers elsewhere.

May. Probably will, but not certainly.

There are always winners and losers on an issue like this.  I'm not going to deny that, nor should anyone else.

But they do. Repeatedly. Which is rather the point.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 05:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
May. Probably will, but not certainly.

You're right.  Sorry.  And the same should be said for the world with free trade.  The loss of a given job to outsourcing is not a certainty either.

But they do. Repeatedly. Which is rather the point.

Who are "they"?  The Bushies won't even deny that.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 05:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right.  Sorry.  And the same should be said for the world with free trade.  The loss of a given job to outsourcing is not a certainty either.

Absolutely.

Who are "they"?

It's always presented as short-term dislocation rather than long-term loss. Maybe not in detail, but in broad-brush stroke.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 05:32:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's always presented as short-term dislocation rather than long-term loss. Maybe not in detail, but in broad-brush stroke.

Oh, okay.  That's certainly true.  Some of that, I suspect, probably depends on where the worker is located.  If he's in Flint, Michigan, a new job with comparable pay might not be coming to the area.  If he lives in New York, he probably has a better shot of getting back on his feet quickly.  New York is also, obviously, much wealthier than Michigan, and can better afford to help people.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 05:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is capital and there is capital goods. Don't get smart on me, you know the difference between factors of production and products.

Also, just because labour and capital have a price doesn't mean they are goods... Unless you're going to commoditize everything conceptually. Maybe money is a commodity, but labour is not.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 14th, 2006 at 06:11:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Labour is a service provided by workers.  It's not a good.  When we talk about a labour surplus, we're really talking about a surplus of people who can provide a given service.  However, I disagree with you on capital.  You can draw a distinction between capital and capital goods, but I don't see the point.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed Jun 14th, 2006 at 09:58:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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