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Krugman's piece adds up to "trust us, we're economists".  
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 01:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the most amusing part to me is where he tries to paint all resistance to Comparative Advantage as resistance to mathematical modeling or even mathematics in general.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 01:14:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that the usual line from economists though?

It really is remarkable - a hugely influential set of collective beliefs that can't pass even the most basic experimental test and seem to be held together with hand-waving, chewing gum, string, and the odd bit of self-assured disdainful academic snorting.

Why is no one calling these people out on their beliefs?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 01:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 How's this for jumping in mid-stream, ill-prepared and ill-informed to offer comment where angels (ought to) fear to tread?:

  I suspect that Krugman is a little too smart to have missed a flaw the size of an aircraft carrier.  That doesn't mean that I believe--or that I'm sure--that Comparative economic advantage is as suited and valid for these our times as it may have once seemed to others.  But Krugman lives in these, our times, and he is typically a reliable defender of the interests of the average fellow against the wealthy elite--to whom he personally has much more objective resemblance.  That means he has been able to consistently argue against his own personal and purely selfish pecuniary class interests.

 So the upshot: whatever the real, valid faults of the theory of comparative economic advantage, they are probably not nearly so evident as it's being made out here.

One thing Krugman does not do is appeal to authority in an ultimate sense.  His case is supported empirically (not to be confused with "infallably"), and he certainly knows that bailing-wire and chewing gum are not going to stand up to the review of his fellow economists who could and would dismantle it if it were so implausible as that, even if most of us here cannot.

 I think that there is no question of the fact that the economic journals are full of contending arguments on every disputable point, including those held and defended by P. Krugman; so, we may rest assured that there are people "calling him out" as well as that he is answering them.  

 We can be sure of one other thing, too: there are no shortage of points on which the very best economists simply have to say, "We don't know the answer to that question; we haven't been able to solve that problem."

  I'd add as others above have said or implied that  there's a rather early point at which the economic problems become intimately political ones, as well.  On that I've  no doubt.  But I really think that this fact is not lost on Drew who is also smarter than some may be giving him credit for being.

 ( I think) We should play more politely until Paul Krugman joins the discussion.

:^)

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 10:14:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Much appreciated.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 11:17:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Faith-based social science.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 06:41:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Economists do not have the ability to reduce their phenomena-under-study to controlled experiments.  As a result they have a much harder time than those people studying the, comparatively simplistics, of Physics.  

Quoting kcurie, "je, je, je, je."

by ATinNM on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 10:06:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have been told by economics graduate students that most academic economists' attitude to empirical studies is much like Einstein's
Then I would have felt sorry for the dear Lord. The theory is correct. — Albert Einstein — When asked by a student what he would have done if Sir Arthur Eddington's famous 1919 gravitational lensing experiment, which confirmed relativity, had instead disproved it.
Whole branches of the physical sciences cannot perform controlled experiments: astrophysics, geophysics. And yet they progress on the basis of empirical information.

Double jejejeje


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 10:09:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well.  Yeah.  

But a mountain doesn't decide it is bored being a mountain and will be a llano for a while.  

(I've got to get to work.  ... To Be Continued ...)

by ATinNM on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 10:37:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with social science isn't empiricism per say but the huge problem of measuring important theoretical concepts.

Take inflaation's most convenient measure -- the US Consumer Price Index. How many economists agree this is a good measure? What does it include? What does it leave out? Non-experimental physical sciences can advance at a faster rate because it is clear the things they measure are fairly easily measured constants.

I have yet to touch or measure 'utility'.

No raindrop believes itself responsible for the flood that follows.

by Benito (haplo1998 at yahoo) on Thu Jun 22nd, 2006 at 01:24:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it all starts with these 'on aggregate' measures like inflation.

I think there's a question that economists are taught not to ask, which is 'In whose experience?'

Inflation is supposedly an objective measure of - something. But it will be experienced differently on Wall St, by the middle classes, and by a poor person in New Orleans.

Which of these different experiences is considered the most relevant and important 'on aggregate, and why?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 23rd, 2006 at 09:45:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed. If value is subjective, which it obviously is, then most standard economic measures have a huge amount of error in them. An economist would argue that the price system effectively aggregates supply and demand in order to convey value. This is in itself a fantasy as market prices even in those conditions most approximating Walrasin assumptions still come no where near meeting them. Then add the fact that 'vaule' out of necessity changes depending upon who is doing the evaluation....well, you get the picture.  

No raindrop believes itself responsible for the flood that follows.
by Benito (haplo1998 at yahoo) on Fri Jun 23rd, 2006 at 10:40:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have thought of writing a diary linking the themes of this one (specifically, the implicit bargaining in Kaldor-Hicks) with the pie-cutting problem.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 24th, 2006 at 03:51:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to speak of the difference between "consumer price index", "producer price index" and "import/export price indices" (US Bureau of Labour Statistics).

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 23rd, 2006 at 09:52:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Note that economists insist in NOT releasing the price data that is used to make those price indexes. All are funded with taxpayer money, but the only thing the taxpayer get is meaningless agregates.

Some personal rants at Bernard Salanie's blog

by Laurent GUERBY on Sun Jul 2nd, 2006 at 10:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Faith-based social science.

Exactly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 at 05:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, ideology at least. You might want to take a look at  Amadae's Rationalizing Capitalist Democracy: The Cold War Origins of Rational Choice Liberalism. Marxism was in part so successful an ideology because it presented a coherent explanation of why things occurred -- i.e. the 'scientific' claim that Marxists made about it. What this book examines is the effort made by US intellectuals to counter that claim to scientific legitimacy and present 'scientific' evidence that contradicted Marxism.
 

No raindrop believes itself responsible for the flood that follows.
by Benito (haplo1998 at yahoo) on Thu Jun 22nd, 2006 at 01:20:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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