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I don't think any of this is a proper analytical approach. A proper approach would break out the population into groups by occupation, lack of occupation and reasons for each, include the ones that are on short hours, those on long hours and analyse out earning levels, happiness and health levels. That might give you something to build a comparison on.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Jun 17th, 2006 at 01:07:52 PM EST
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With respect, you do not seem to be able to acknowledge points that are incredibly basic,,,,like a democracy can legitimately set its own priorities--calling the US military underemployed, or welfare, is ludicrous to me,,,or US military decisions on spending not "normal".  So it's probably best to drop this.
by wchurchill on Sat Jun 17th, 2006 at 07:31:26 PM EST
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The whole point is that the choices that democracies in western europe have made are constantly called into question by people who push a "US model" without paying any attention to the choices made in the US.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jun 18th, 2006 at 03:14:59 PM EST
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Colman in fairness that is not the point at all. For instance I am sure there are more people employed in the public health service in Sweden then in America but you considered them employed. While in America has more employed in the military and you considered them unemployed. Stop trying to fight "propaganda" with "propaganda" stick to an even and fair anaysis of the facts.
by Simon on Sun Jun 18th, 2006 at 04:23:12 PM EST
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The nasty part of me wants to say that we've been trying that, and all we get is drowned in crap. It also occurs to me that your sympathies are not with Sweden in this...

The other says that if you look at my remarks above (and possibly listen to the voices in my head that only I can hear, since I'm not sure how much of this I've said in detail or were I've said it) my view is that comparing unemployment figures in the way the laissez-faire propagandists do is nonsensical. Is my version half-assed? Yes, of course it is: I'm a blogger responding in his coffee breaks. It's no more half-assed than the crap from the FT. What do you want for a first try? I have lots of responses to take into account and perhaps I can come to a better way of making my point so as not to confuse USians who have an instant defence mechanism if you criticise their mighty warriors in any  way or possibly suggest that spending more money on the military than the rest of the world is not a good idea.

I do agree that what we would really need to do (and I said this above I hope) to break out the population of working age into:

  • Unemployed
  • Not in the labour force and why.
  • Employed in public sector
  • Employed in private sector
  • Employed in private sector on things paid for by government.

The last is critical for working out what's happening and how choices are structured. Your point about the "public health service" is critical: of course there are more people employed in a public health service in Sweden than in the US. Does the US even have a public health service?

You also need to know the labour force participation, the demographic structure of the country and an idea of how these things are changing over time.

Once you know all that and take it into account you can start doing comparisons.

However, if people want to start publishing headlines like "15% jobless in Sweden" without that, then I don't feel all that guilty for putting together an analysis that could have been better. I'll even work up a better version next week. Want to bet the FT will do the same?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jun 18th, 2006 at 04:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
of course there are more people employed in a public health service in Sweden than in the US. Does the US even have a public health service?

Huh? Of course the US has one.  In fact US public sector spending on health care in dollars per capita is comparable to that of European countries. It's just that our health care system is utterly FUBAR, so private spending is also immense, and all that combined gives works out to give us worse results than that of the wealthy European countries.

Take a look at this graph
It's part of a Paul Krugman NYRB article on the US health care system.

by MarekNYC on Sun Jun 18th, 2006 at 05:33:05 PM EST
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Are the workers employed by the government or by private companies working for the government?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jun 18th, 2006 at 05:35:59 PM EST
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Are the workers employed by the government or by private companies working for the government?

There are workers employed by the government - federal, state, and local (a quick google tells me that NYC owns 11 hospitals 6 diagnostic centers and 80 clinics, for example, there seems to also be a state owned hospital here and I believe there is a federally owned VA one as well). There are workers employed by the for profit private sector . There are workers employed by the non profit private sector. In most cases hospitals in all three of those categories treat both people covered by  public provided insurance and those with private insurance, as well as those with no insurance at all (emergency rooms are required to provide urgent care regardless of the patient's ability to pay for it).  

So there isn't a yes or no answer to your question - is a doctor in private practice whose patients mostly rely on Medicare 'employed' by the government? What about a doctor working in a public sector hospital whose patients are primarily those with private insurance?

by MarekNYC on Sun Jun 18th, 2006 at 05:55:25 PM EST
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Thanks. I wasn't sure of the structure of it. That last paragraph is the significant one from a comparison between countries point of view.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 19th, 2006 at 02:27:11 AM EST
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The essay you pointed to is very interesting. Thanks!
by Deni on Sun Jun 18th, 2006 at 10:13:51 PM EST
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Good article. Thanks.


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Mon Jun 19th, 2006 at 09:46:54 AM EST
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Thank you for the reference to this article.  I found it excellent and very thought provoking.
by wchurchill on Mon Jun 19th, 2006 at 07:36:42 PM EST
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Colman I wasn't making a point about the FT anaysis or anything else my only point was about saying that saying that military personnel were unemployed was wrong. For instance was Swedens military included.

As for sympathy with Sweden. While there is many aspect of the swedish model I disagree with. A equal free public health service is not one of them.  

by Simon on Mon Jun 19th, 2006 at 09:32:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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