Display:
If I may jump in with my perception of Yanov...

It is of course not true that Russia has nothing of European tradition. But the distinctions evidently do matter. Those distinctions are not falsified by mere observations how progressive Ivan III was, or that Lithuanian and Prussian states were even more patrimonial. As Pipes admits as well, Russia's history is  a struggle of conservative and what we may call liberal forces. But persistent lack of success of most progressive reforms and revolutions only shows the strength of conservative forces - patrimonalism always comes back. The way Davydov described Yanov's work is a bit simplistic: "dispelling myths" of Russia's non-European nature does not mean you can set in stone "Russia is just as Europe" and dismiss all arguments that contradict that.

Here is a bit of European Russian history: the original Russian state, Kiev Russ, was established by Variags - the Vikings that came from the North down the great Russian rivers. I have no doubt that both Russians and Scandinavians are proud of that. But still, this is a deviation from usual European histories. In particular, Christianity and eventually the Roman law came up differently.

by das monde on Mon Jun 19th, 2006 at 09:38:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is a bit of European Russian history: the original Russian state, Kiev Russ, was established by Variags - the Vikings that came from the North down the great Russian rivers. I have no doubt that both Russians and Scandinavians are proud of that. But still, this is a deviation from usual European histories.
In fact, having a ruling dynasty of foreign origin is quite common. Just remember Normans in England and in Normandy / Sicily,Bulgarians,Germans in Prussia and other Slavic lands ... you shouldn't go too far into history to prove the differences - it's dangerous.
by Sargon on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 04:49:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the dynasty was of more of local origin, for as much as I know.

The Variags/Varangians were instumental in uniting the tribes and organizing the state. But those involved in active ruling got quickly assimilated.

What is probably significant for our discussion, is that the Varangians have not been under full influence of Christianity by that time. Their state building was   independent of the Romans as well. When the Vikings became more "mainstream" Europeans, they were not influencing Russia anymore. So your point only underscores some distinctions - though I can't say anything definite how important (or not) that was.  

by das monde on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:46:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Varangian influence, if counted at all, is generally seen as counteracting the mongol influence. The Vikings based their societies on small independent units and were very far from a patrimonial society.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 10:28:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's true. But there is one aspect which resonates with "organizing your political power in the same manner as organizing your authority over the household". Exploratory nature of Vikings' expansions occasionally meant that they were not restricting their chances to raid while the balance of power favoured them. In other words, they were treating things they could grasp and hold on as their own. This aspect might played out differently in different cases (and it did). At "best", this link shouldn't have been more than an association in Russia's case. But subsequent Mongol raides might have greatly inforced it.
by das monde on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 09:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The way Davydov described Yanov's work is a bit simplistic: "dispelling myths" of Russia's non-European nature does not mean you can set in stone "Russia is just as Europe" and dismiss all arguments that contradict that.

I had the very same reaction.  


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 11:55:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series