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No, such things come from the hadiths, which are deemed to be the non-koranic sayings of mohammed. It is these which largely drive sharia law.

However, may of the hadiths are a wide scattering of sayings that reflect all manner of traditions, some of which have been shown to have been introduced up to 3 - 400 yrs after Mohammed's death. Which undermines their credibility somewhat. There have been several attempts to remove the more obviously bogus sayings, but they tend to persist or re-surface when convenient to the politics of the day.

Religion is about politics and control of people's lives in the end. Islam is just a very effective control mechanism.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:37:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you saying patriarchy in Arabic culture was a result of the Hadiths, and not the other way around?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:39:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Patriarchy in Arabic, Christian and Jewish culture is largely orthogonal to the actual religious writings involved. The culture tends to choose the parts of the religious writings they pay attention to based on the needs of those who hold power in the culture.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:42:37 AM EST
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No, in fact, the inheritance thing does come from the Qur'an.

But at the time, the concept of women inheriting anything was unheard-of, so the Qur'anic instruction that daughters were to inherit half what their brothers did was a marked improvement over the status quo.  At the time, Islam was downright progressive on women's rights.

The argument to be made now is that the spirit of progressiveness inherent in the original revalations has been lost and should be regained.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:55:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd agree that the spirit of prgressiveness needs to be regained. within Islam I believe the idea is called Ishjtihad, but was stomped several hundred years ago as a threat to the authority of the formal religious hierarchies.

Irsahd Manji makes this the central point of her book "The trouble with Isalm", Reza Aslan makes similar points in "No God but God". Many in Europe are now reclaiming it and moving it forward.

However, my statement about most of this stuff coming from the hadiths is that, irrespective of the source, the interpretation is driven by a cultural suppression of women that is only expressed in the hadiths.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 06:08:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was never stomped in the Shi'a tradition as far as I know. The Sunnis declared it dead at some stage for political reasons. I could have that backwards.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 06:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ironically, the fundamentalists are employing more of it than anyone else ever did under the guise of a return to previous roots and traditions. These guys would probably have been killed as heretics or something a couple of hundred years ago. At least outcast. Or people would have been mean to them or something.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 06:10:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose the Western variety of cultural suppression of women is better, we just get it out of nowhere through the dispassionate application of pure reason (there is no shortage of misogynist giants of Philosophy, like Schopenhauer).

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 06:14:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's exactly the same mechanism. And anyway, the western cultural suppression is often justified by religion as well. Have you never seen women cover their heads in a  catholic church? Used to be all the rage.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 06:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh absolutely. However, at least ours can be declared illegal. We're trying.

It's one of the reasons why I resist religious interference in politics. Until religions cease to be authoritarian, misogynist, homophobic etc etc they have nothing to contribute to progressive,  deomocratic societies

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 06:26:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, such things come from the hadiths

No, I checked, they are in the Koran, though not necessarily as severe as treated by Wahhabis.

In Sura 2>, there is a line about different weight as witness (2:282) (but only for the case of financial transactions).

In Sura 4, I found the inheritance law (4:11, 4:12, 4:176) (though these are minimum requirements if no final will is left), women can't have multiple men (4:24) (though adultery is 'tolerated' with limitations), men are workers and women should accept staying home (4:32, 4:34) (though there is no outright prohibition, but it is only a privilege to be granted), disobedient women can be beaten if all else fails (4:34).

Read more here, where they try to put a favorable spin on it (well actually these laws were a progress in Muhhamad's time, but fall short of equality).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 06:33:43 AM EST
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