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How about the plight of secular Iraqi women (and secular Iraqis generally)? Ask Riverbend how she feels about the prospects for women's rights.

I also don't know what Morocco is doing in the list. It's always been one of the most secular Muslim countries.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 03:59:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could have mentioned Afghanistan, too. What improvement? Now the warlords force women to wear all-body clothing and submt to their men, plus their soldiers also rape women from other tribes? Or do they mean new laws that aren't worth the paper they were printed on, now even inside Kabul?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 04:34:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I could have, but I am not convinced the situation is worse now than it was under the Taliban.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 04:36:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Worse is debatable and depends on locality (e.g. Kabul vs. everywhere else), but the question is whether you can see any improvement.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 04:41:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, improvement I can't see any.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 04:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for the argument that it actually worsened (chiefly because Taliban law-and-order was replaced with warlord lawlessness), I best let Afghan women make the argument -- three links to RAWA stories:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:00:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am very skeptical about all this.

It's not because the Afghanistan constitution enshrines "equality of the sexes" that equality exists. My cousin (mentioned previously on ET) who came back from his first tour of duty told me that the only females he saw in half a year spent walking around among Afghans as a translator, were little girls. No women anywhere to be seen, except in burkhas on some occasions.

Ok, maybe many women are now in parliament, but my guess is that parliament is mainly (if not only) composed of Western-educated men to start with, so it's not a revolution per se. And writing the law is not the same thing as applying it in warlord territory.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Secular-or-not has very little to do with it.

The women's movement in Morocco encompasses both secular and religious activists, and the country has made some major advances in the last few years, including the revision of the family and personal status laws, and the introduction of a quota system that puts at least 30 women in parliament.

We can debate the merits of quotas till the cows come home, but in this part of the world, I think they're a good thing.  Nobody will get used to the idea of women in parliament until there are women in parliament, and a critical mass of them at that.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:02:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree. This, though,
While some developments may appear minor to those who take these freedoms for granted, they are revolutionary in conservative Muslim societies.
Makes it sound like Morocco is subject to sharia law or something. "conservative Muslim society" sounds like a pleonasm here.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Morocco has a liberal image, but rural Moroccans are conservative Muslims, too. (So said two different sets of acquintances who visited the country, both going beyond the usual tourist spots.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:14:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure this is relevant, but if I am not mistaken, there are cultural differences in the usage of 'secular' here: in the US, it is usually equated with 'nonreligious', while in Europe (or at least in the countries I am more familiar with), it more means a separation of Church (and religious law) and State.

Why I am not sure that this is relevant because I don't know on what basis religious women's rights activists argue -- e.g. do they find a basis for changes in law in the Koran (and Hadiths), or do they merely claim that the Koran allows their demands (or even just that the Koran can be interpreted to allow those)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 at 05:20:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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