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well, first of all, claiming a place that your ancestors left  2000 years and has occupants who have  lived there for those 2000 years, is a really bad start.

the Jews were offered land in Australia and in  Canada but refused.  

had they taken it, they would have thrived and would have been sure that they wouldn't have this type of problem to begin with.

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 04:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the Jews were offered land in Australia and in  Canada but refused.  
not familiar with this, and found nothing with a search, nor on wikipedia.  perhaps you could provide a reference.
by wchurchill on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not a reference to the offer, but to the refusal:
Jewish Virtual Library: The Uganda Proposal
Theodor Herzl sought support from the great powers for the creation of a Jewish homeland. He turned to Great Britain, and met with Joseph Chamberlain, the British colonial secretary and others. The British agreed, in principle, to Jewish settlement in East Africa "on conditions which will enable members to observe their national customs."

...

Zangwill became the movement's undisputed leader. After the rejection of the Uganda scheme on the grounds of impracticability by the British, Zangwill turned his attention to settlement in Canada and Australia. But opposition from local residents led him to abandon the scheme. Expeditions were sent to Mesopotamia (Iraq), Cyrenaica (Libya) and Angola but little came of these expeditions.

A project that had some concrete success was the Galveston scheme which contemplated the settlement of Jews in the American Southwest, in particular in Texas. The project received the assistance of Jacob Schiff, the American Jewish banker, and some 9,300 Jews arrived in that area between 1907-1914, through the Emigration Bureau of the Territorialist organization.

Also:Territorialism
Other territorialist attempts, meant as counterweights to Zionism, were undertaken in the Soviet Union between the two world wars. The first was in the southern Ukraine and the northern Crimea, where four non­contiguous "national districts" (raiony) were established in the early 1920s and obliterated when the Nazis invaded. The second was in Birobidjan, where a "Jewish Autonomous Region" was proclaimed in 1934. This venture also failed, leaving a small Jewish minority in the region. In 1935, in response to the Nazi accession to power in Germany, Isaac Nachman Steinberg established the Freeland League in the United States. This organization attempted, unsuccessfully, to pursue Jewish autonomy by obtaining a large piece of territory in sparsely populated areas in Ecuador, Australia, or Surinam.


Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:11:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ignore the first line, I thought I was going to end up quoting a different document from the JWL.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:12:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if I interpret this correctly, a number of alternatives were evaluated, but for one reason or another just didn't work.  and that the deal quoted above re: austalia and canada, was rejected by local residents.
Zangwill turned his attention to settlement in Canada and Australia. But opposition from local residents led him to abandon the scheme.
by wchurchill on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to the Zionists, "one reason or another" boils down to religion. Only in Palestine the Jews had the drive to succeed by any means necessary, out of religious zeal.
JVL: Could the Zionists Have Chosen Another Country Besides Palestine? by Mitchell Bard
Simultaneously, a wave of Jews immigrated to Palestine from Yemen, Morocco, Iraq and Turkey. These Jews were unaware of Theodor Herzl's  political Zionism or of European pogroms. They were motivated by the centuries-old dream of the "Return to Zion" and a fear of intolerance. Upon hearing that the gates of Palestine were open, they braved the hardships of travel and went to the "Land of Israel."

The Zionist ideal of a return to Israel has profound religious roots. Many Jewish prayers speak of Jerusalem, Zion and the Land of Israel. The injunction not to forget Jerusalem, the site of the Temple, is a major tenet of Judaism. The Hebrew language, the Torah, laws in the Talmud, the Jewish calendar and Jewish holidays and festivals such as Shavuot all originated in Israel and revolve around its seasons and conditions. Jews pray toward Jerusalem and recite the words "next year in Jerusalem" every Passover. Jewish religion, culture and history make clear that it is only in the land of Israel that the Jewish commonwealth can be built.



Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:37:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It also bears noting that Herzl's initial preference was for southern Uganda (Buganda-land), but this was rejected by the Zionist World Congress on religious grounds. Herzl was forced to pledge commitment to the Palestine project.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:43:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My understanding is that Uganda was proposed by Joseph Chamberlain in 1903. At that time Britain had no control over Palestine. His proposal was turned down because the entire basis of Zionism was a return to the historical land of Israel. At that point Jews looking for a better place to live were relatively able to immigrate to the US, Canada and Australia. They didn't have any particular need of separate colonies there. It is of course the Jews who got to those countries before immigration was restricted that escaped the holocaust and have generally prospered.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 06:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My understanding is that Uganda was proposed by Joseph Chamberlain in 1903. At that time Britain had no control over Palestine. His proposal was turned down because the entire basis of Zionism was a return to the historical land of Israel.

Quite so, but Herzl supported the idea.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 07:23:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, I had always heard that any other place other than Palestine was out of the question.  
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but you also heard that they turned down an offer in Canada and Australia.  maybe a little urban legend here?
by wchurchill on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:55:26 PM EST
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From the JVL upthread: Jewish religion, culture and history make clear that it is only in the land of Israel that the Jewish commonwealth can be built.

Now, a Zionist source claims the Canadian and Australian options foundered because of hostility from local populations... I'd like to have independent confirmation.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 01:24:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Haven't heard of this one but my impression was that various ideas were floated about a place for a Jewish state, most prominently Uganda or a piece of S. America, but no actual full blown offers. But I'm not sure why you seem to think that it would have been morally preferable for the Jews to take over someone else's land in Australia or Canada (or Africa or S. America) rather than where they did.
by MarekNYC on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that was the point - it was uninhabited land
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Either you're applying to the Australian aboriginals and the Inuit the "land without a people" meme, or you expect the Jews to want to settle in the middle of the Australian outback, or on the Canadian arctic plains?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nope.  if you've ever been to either country, you would know that there are thousands of square miles of uninhabited land that belongs to the "Crown".  very nice land too.  that's why these countries are so open to immigration.
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 05:25:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. The early Zionists very well realised that the land they want would NOT be uninhabited. Considerations that the locals should feel they profit from the immigrants' presence and that some re-settlement of them so that there is a Jewish majority precede the final decision for Palestine.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 03:38:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well, first of all, claiming a place that your ancestors left  2000 years and has occupants who have  lived there for those 2000 years, is a really bad start.

Add to those while the Sephardim and Mizrahim are almost certainly descended from person who lived in Israel, the origins of the greatest antagonists for a "Jewish" state, the Ashkenazi, have disputed orgins, and may be descended from the Khazars, a Turkic people who lived in the Ukraine in 9th and 10th centuries.

Regardless, if this 2,000 year old claim is valid, do the descendents of Muslims expelled from Spain have a right to conquer and live in Andalucia (Al-Andalus.)  Do Mexicans have the right to retake lands ceded in 1848 in the treaty of Guadelupe Hidalgo?  Do the descendents of the Canannites have the right to expel Israeli Jews from "their" land?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 07:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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