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Britain's planting a Zionist colony in Palistine was one of their many acts of imperialism. Some of them took and others didn't. The European colonists essentially supplanted the aboriginal populations in North America and Australia with a great deal of help from imported European diseases. They weren't able to supplant the indigenous population in Africa and Asia and eventually had to turn control over to them.

Israel is a very particular case in the post colonial world. It is a European transplant that would not be able to survive if it were left entirely to its own devices. Its existence depends on the support of the US. After almost 60 years of unresolved conflict it is inconceivable that they are going to coexist in peaceful cooperation with their neighbors. It is a problem with no reasonable solution.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 10:32:02 PM EST
Sometimes I feel that the American, Australian, and European critics of Israel are put off by the weak effort at genocide made by the Zionists. "Now chaps, if that's what you call a slaughter, perhaps you don't deserve a nation at all. You don't see any Tasmanians asking for their land back, do you?"
by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 10:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Small pox, etc. did the lion's share in Tasmania. The problem with that approach in the ME would be comming up with germs that selectively infect TERRRIST.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 10:52:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno, I think that shooting people and offering hunting bounties, and then having them finished off by missionaries was pretty effective too.
by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 11:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes I feel that your unrelented cynism leads you astray.

If complaining about atrocities now are negated by our ancestors atrocities noone has any clean hands. So I guess we should leave it at that, and content that noone should trown the first stone just wait for the eavenly kingdom to manifest here on earth?

Or we chose not to believe in that crap and start working from where we are, that is right here and right now, and try to stop (weak as such attempts might be) atrocities in the order they occur, from now on.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 10:52:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm against the atrocities now and I think they should be stopped. But I think that unrealistic and/or overly-emotional or frankly duplicitous critiques don't lead anywhere positive. People can jump up and down and yell about Israel's violation of international laws that are laws for the weak and suggestions for the strong and Israel's need to trust itself to worthless UN assurances without doing anything more than making themselves feel good and exacerbating the existing layers of propaganda and distrust. One of the many reasons that the Israeli government and military are in the hands of Bush league morons is that the peace movement in Israel has been damaged by the valid perception that outside critics mean harm and are lying or being fooled - the exact same mechanism has solidified the hold of extremists in Iran.

I would desperately like to see some way forward that would save Palestinians and Lebanese from this nightmare. I don't believe that sanctimonious lectures that ignore the ugly realities of how power works in this planet will get them there.

by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Sun Jul 23rd, 2006 at 11:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't believe that sanctimonious lectures that ignore the ugly realities of how power works in this planet will get them there.

Not impossible that I may have posted something that fits that description at some point or other. But this post isn't it.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 07:28:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's hard to discuss this topic because most of us have a whole set of trigger points. I'm not objecting to your post, but if you look at the comments here or on Booman or in any of the "lefty" sites you see the many of them reflect a narrative that  Israel is a uniquely lawless state, a racist European imposition on a previously peaceful Eden,  taking advantage of the guilt ridden nature of the tender hearted Europeans and depending on the Jews conspiratorial control of USA. That is a racist narrative (not the least because it disappears the Mizrahi Israelis).
by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 09:56:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could you point to the comments from this diary (or make a selection from them) which rely on one--or more--of your narrative points:

a) that Israel is a uniquely lawless state
b) that Israel is a racist European imposition on a previously peaceful Eden
c) that Israel takes advantage of the guilt-ridden nature of the tender-hearted Europeans
d) that c) (or Israel, or both) depend(s) on the Jews' conspiratorial control of the USA

I'm not sure what--or who--you are objecting to in this post or its comments.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 10:34:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, let's talk about international law. Most of the so-called "international law" being broken by Israel are racist UN GA resolutions that apply to Israel and Israel ALONE. That's not international law.

There have been rulings by international courts that have no jurisdiction over Israel, and that Israel wasn't even represented at because of this lack of juridiction. That is not international law either.

Resolutions 242 and 338 require Israeli withdrawl AFTER a negotiated settlement of SOME of the land. There was no territorial despute with Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan GOT their land back, and the Palestinians and Syria didn't negotiate in good faith.

by messy on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 09:55:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not racist: they apply to a state, not an ethnic group.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 10:01:47 AM EST
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yeah, racist because the objections to Israel are due to it's ethnic makeup.
by messy on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 03:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you're just playing the victim
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 03:56:02 PM EST
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Prove it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 04:16:41 PM EST
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read UN security council resolutions 249, 250 and 251.
by messy on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 09:59:40 PM EST
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That's a prima facie trollish comment, so I'm not sure why Migeru feels it merits a 4.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 08:47:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not interested in discussing ratings.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 08:50:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it's a european transplant, then how do you explain the fact that the majority of Jews in Israel are Arabs?
by messy on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 09:42:11 AM EST
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Define "Arab"?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 09:48:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Someone who, or who's recent ancestors comes from a country that has an islamic government and has Arabic as it's official primary language.

Tunisia, for example is an Arab country.

by messy on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 09:59:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So you're saying the Mizrahim outnumber the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 10:04:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you have to remember that most of the sephardim fled to Ottoman Turkey after the Trastamara regime kicked them out of Spain, and many of them wound up in what is now Syria and Palestine. That was before the ethnic cleansing there (Palestine) during the late 17th and early 18th centuries.

"True" Jewish Arabs, i.e., Yeminis, Iraqis and the like (we can also ad Iran, which is not actually "Arab" in the linguistic sense, but surely is in the cultural one.) were kicked out of their home countries and went to Israel, and in fact there were more of them than Palestinians period back in 1950.

The Sephardim and Mizrahim hate the arabs more than the Askenazis, because of what the Arabs did to THEM personally.

by messy on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 03:38:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have not answered my question. Point me to statistics showing that the Ashkenazi are not a majority.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 04:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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