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... the necessity to maintain at least minimal support for wars by avoiding large spikes in our casualty rates makes it impossible for modern, high-tech, highly connected democracies to successfully prosecute aggressive wars.

Was NATO's war against Serbia an example of a successfully prosecuted aggressive war by modern, high-tech, highly connected democracies?

If so, what made that war different from the current conflicts in Iraq and Lebanon?  Is the difference a primarily cultural one (among the populations being attacked); for example, would Serb forces not have been willing to fight a defensive guerilla war in their own country which would very likely reduce it to rubble?  Or are there more significant material or political differences that made it impossible for Serbia to continue fighting while Iraqis and Hezbollah (at least for now) refuse to give up; for example, the relative lack of support for the U.S./Israel in the latter wars compared with the relatively large number of major countries aligned against Serbia?

I imagine one significant difference is the actual demographic make-up of the territory being defended from aggression.  In Kosovo, which Serbs felt deeply to be an integral part of the Serbian "homeland", only 10% of the population were actually while 80% were Albanians.  On the other hand, there is no doubt that Lebanon is populated predominantly by Lebanese and Iraq by Iraqis.

Perhaps if NATO had wanted to prosecute the war until Milosevic were captured, for example, the Serbs would have not given up, turning to guerilla warfare and forcing NATO to cause large spikes in casualty rates using precision air support.

Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:39:59 AM EST
I'd go with the demography, and that was a more conventional conflict, wasn't it? With armies in the field and all that as opposed to real guerilla warfare? Though South Lebanon is a bit of hybrid in that respect.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:42:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right on. In fact, your analysis is more true than you realise: for NATO failed with its loftier original objectives.

First, the war plan was an air war increased in three steps in hope of the regime crumbling: first bombs on Serbian forces in Kosovo, then in all of Yugoslavia, then bombs to wreck the economic background (bombing bridges, refineries, administration buildings far away from Kosovo -- being closest, the senseless destruction of the Danube bridges in Novi Sad are most in my memory). But this plan didn't work out: stage 3 was reached in the first weeks, but still nothing happened, and NATO had no better idea than continue bombing, scrambling to find targets. Finally the regime moved when there was a threat of invasion by ground forces (which I then thought they should have done on day one).

Second, what NATO got from Milošević in the end was not more than what he offered himself in Rambouillet, before the KLA representatives made talks fail. The hoped-for crumbling of the regime as citizens blamed Milo for the destruction of their country didn't happen, in fact it was the opposition that was temporalily weakened, and permanently tainted: while the following in no small part European-shouldered effort to unite and prop up the opposition did result in Milo's overthrow a year later, NATO's bombardement made Yugoslavia more of an economic ruin and made nationalists' job of blame games much easier, resulting in today's mess.

Third, instead of preventing or stopping a genocide, the Serb regular and irregular forces turned a mostly anti-insurgency fight into violent ethnic cleansing after the bombs began to fall -- and KLA and ex-KLA forces began their own ethnic cleansing and murder campaign after the Serbian forces left.

Fourth, the NATO->UN->EU control of Kosovo is also a mess, they proved incapable of damming the ethnic cleansing and the build of organised crime (with Kosovan mafias later controlling a good chunk of European drugs and human smuggling and the modern slave trade called woman trafficking), as they too often resorted to force defence rather than intervene.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 08:44:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The answer about Serbian case is a little bit more complicated. It would take dissertation to just seriously start to understand it.
Serbs are not suicidal and in their history they learned that there is more then one way to win the war. That does not mean that they are not ready to die for their freedom and land. Have a look at WWI and WWII number of victims. And guerilla war is not unknown in their neck of the woods.
But they need really strong leader and clear goal. Milosevic tried to act as a strong leader (especially at the beginning until his weakness was not revealed) but from the beginning up to the end from his idiotic moves Serbs (or at least half of them) couldn't clearly see what is it that they need to die for...and kill for. Clearly there was no unity (common problem between Serbs), because there was no plan clearly exposed. On the other hand  in a way Serbs haven't finished their WWII civil war between communists and royalists in their heads yet , and Milosevic declaring his self as a communist , ha-ha , had no chance to unite Serbs.  First there was no clear plan in Slovenia and then more important Croatia and destruction of Vukovar have turned most of the nation off our "fight for freedom". It simply was obvious that this is going to be very dirty war on our part.
Serbs in Bosnia were much more successful (in their military effort) because they really felt at home and they had clear military targets. As for Kosovo as much as we feel attached fact is that we have lost most of the territories there by simple fact as birth rate is. So sooner or later we'll have to say goodbye to at least half of it because it's simply not praiseworthy to maintain. Too costly...
But make no mistake if Milosevic did not sign (like he always did sign worse proposal then he had at the first place) and if NATO solders let ground forces enter Serbia the guerilla war would be present till this very day. NATO bombardment managed to unite Serbs as Milosevic him self never would be able. That's why he stayed in power after that.  At the time of bombardment I remember talking to the people there by phone and e-mail and they prayed for Americans to come and fight "face to face" on the ground instead of cowardly "spilling" bombs from the sky. People are proud and hate occupation (like I assume most of other nations and a little bit more).I wonder what would be scenario if any of the western European nations (UK, France for example) would be attacked by NATO and abandoned by everyone else?
Serbs even made jokes during bombardment like when they manage to destroy that "invisible" plane (F16 or what ever was the name).
"Oooopppsss! Sorry we didn't see it"...was their answer. This kind of humor had helped  them to remain sane I suppose.
NATO war with Serbia is definitely not an example to compare with these wars of Middle East.
And Kosovo and Balkan wars are not over yet...they actually are endless...Too much blood has been spilled during centuries and there was never enough time between it for at least one generation to forget about it. I am not going to live long enough to see what if anything these EU memberships (in promise) for ex YU nations can achieve.  
by vbo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:10:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The answer about Serbian case is a little bit more complicated. It would take dissertation to just seriously start to understand it.

Well, it falls short of a dissertation, but I still think it might serve as a primer:

A brief history of Kosovo: part I

A brief history of Kosovo: part II


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:38:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In WWI and WWII, the Serbs were victims of Austrian or Nazi aggression.  In the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo, the Serbs were themselves the aggressors.
by GCarty (GJCarty2002 at yahoo dot co dot yoo-kay) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 01:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well you are kind of right, but only in a way....and even that maybe...
Serbs did fight on the territory that was their own country named Yugoslavia (not like coalition of the "billing" in Afghanistan and Iraq or Israel in Lebanon now), they did not occupy any other foreign country, and you know there was no aggression  legally. They fought partition of their country that they made spilling blood in WWI and WWII..
Problem is that being strongest militarily they used excessive force...Why this reminds me so much of these bustards today mentioned above?
by vbo on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 04:21:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you very much for this response.  I remember "Sorry, we didn't see it banner" very well.  My Serbian friends suggested I watch Podzemlje and Crna macka, beli macor to understand Serbian humor, both of which I loved.

On this point:

NATO war with Serbia is definitely not an example to compare with these wars of Middle East.

from what I read in your response, the difference you see comes down to the demographic make-up of the territory being defended:

As for Kosovo as much as we feel attached fact is that we have lost most of the territories there by simple fact as birth rate is. So sooner or later we'll have to say goodbye to at least half of it because it's simply not praiseworthy to maintain. Too costly...

since you also pointedly write that

if NATO solders let ground forces enter Serbia the guerilla war would be present till this very day.

In other words, Colman's thesis -- when limited to guerilla warfare -- still holds.  The Kosovo War was not a guerilla war.  But would have become one, had NATO invaded Serbia.  In which case, according to Colman's thesis, air power would not have been enough to defeat Serbia, and moreover would have caused far more civilian casualties then it did.  At least on this point, NATO seems to have been smart.

Out of curiosity, do you agree with DoDo's point above:

what NATO got from Miloševi? in the end was not more than what he offered himself in Rambouillet, before the KLA representatives made talks fail.


Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:14:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
The Kosovo War was not a guerilla war.  But would have become one, had NATO invaded Serbia.  In which case, according to Colman's thesis, air power would not have been enough to defeat Serbia, and moreover would have caused far more civilian casualties then it did.  At least on this point, NATO seems to have been smart.
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I agree but I don't know if NATO have been smart or they (and Serbs in a way) were lucky that Milosevic lost his nerves after terrific bombardment of infrastructure of Serbia and agreed to sign peace. In a way Serbs psychologically were ready and willing to fight guerilla war on the ground ...even those Serbs that hated Milosevic. That's how NATO united them. They even hated Milosevic for signing peace at that point.
To understand Serbs (even others on Balkan) you have to understand that there are points when for them death is just "elementary tempest" and while they'll try to avoid it they feel that there are things more important then to just simply stay alive.

Quote:
What NATO got from Milosevic? In the end was not more than what he offered himself in Rambouillet, before the KLA representatives made talks fail.
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I don't know if anybody knows exactly what NATO got from Milosevic or Milosevic from NATO...really. I remember that people were talking about NATO forces walking freely in and through entire Serbia like occupying forces (this is a terrible thought for us) was one of the thingies predicted in Rambouillet. I don't see them in Serbia to this day all though there are rumors  now of letting them use some airports etc. There is simply not transparency there at the moment. I only can say that in order to have person who signs on Serbian side for Kosovo (or even part of Kosovo) independence, live more then 24 hours after that,  Serbs need to get other Serbian lands (where Serbs live) like in Bosnia etc. become part of Serbia. It can only bee that way or there is no way anything signed will hold for the future. As we say "Paper can endure anything"... but  reality...

by vbo on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 04:53:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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