And please don't assume people are trying to pick arguments ...

The Russophobia you rightly noted as a factor goes back at least a century more for a number of former East Bloc countries.

The Austro-Hungarian Empire also has a role in the second motivation I named in my long reply, e.g. leaving behind ethnic tensions after it fell apart. Meanwhile, memory of the Ottoman Empire played a not insignificant role at least in Hungary in relation to the third motivation I named, a reason people think that it is unsafe to stand alone while a big power might be swaggering around. I also note that both Empires played a significant role in the arguentation of the nationalist anti-NATO camp, who feared for sovereignity, of being subjugated by yet another Empire, betraying the heritage of the countless rebels/revolutionaries against these Empires (something in which I now, after Iraq, see more truth than back then...)

_{*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

You probably don't realise how dismissive the above sounded. This DOES matter to people from here. You would find out if you travelled here. But if you find this sub-discussion annoying, I don't want to squabble, let's end it here (and I ask Migeru to stand away too), and please read my other, longer comments about the issue of what motivated people and elites in X Europe to join NATO.

_{*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.}