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Yes, that's possible if world oil demand continues to rise. There's no easy answer. As you say, it's in 25 years. We may have very nifty hybrid cars by then. Certainly, second-generation ethanol (supposing the technology comes smoothly on line and costs are competitive) could come into its own.

The main point then becomes, in this perspective, how do we generate electricity?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 07:56:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mentioned at the London meetup that I'd like to see a summary of the EU's primary energy production capacity, by source. Example:

Electricity [Solar, Wind, Hydroelectric]
Heat [Solar, Geothermal, Radioactive]
Fuel [Coal, Gas, Oil, Nuclear]

As well as the efficiencies involved in turning electricity into heat, heat into electricity, fuel into heat, electricity or fuel into motion...

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 08:01:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here are some energy conversion efficiency estimates.

  • The efficiency of turning electricity into heat is 100%. Any inefficiency in the process shows up as heat, which is what you're trying to get in the first place.
  • The efficiency of turning heat into electricity is much worse, around 30% or so depending on exactly how you do it.
  • Turning fuel into heat is also pretty efficient because again, any "waste" energy is given off as heat.
  • Turning electricity into motion is pretty efficient (ignoring storage and electricity transmission factors), with good electric motors in the >90% range.
  • Turning fuel into motion depends again on the system, but a diesel engine in a truck is around 40%.

In fact, this list shows the basic two problems:
1.) Burning stuff to make electricity is not very efficient.
2.) Burning stuff to get motion is also not very efficient.
Unfortunately, those are the two things you most want to do.
by asdf on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 11:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually with a high-temperature heat source (>800°C) the efficiency of electricity generation can be >50% (this is the case with state-of-the-art coal/gas fired power plants, but it is impossible to reach with current technology nuclear plants).

Note also that turning fuel into heat may be only 60% efficient with older burners that let a good portion of the heat go away with the CO2 through the exhaust pipe, instead of into the heat transfer fluid (the water for the radiators in a house). You need recent "recondensing" boilers to reach >90% efficiency (they cool the exhaust so much that steam condenses and must be drained: if the boiler has a tiny pipe to the sewer, it is one of those). Also, tap-water boilers with a permanent candle were using ~50% of the gas just to stay online...

Pierre

by Pierre on Fri Aug 25th, 2006 at 05:08:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that's possible if world oil demand continues to rise.

If peak oil is really hit in 2005-2010, supply will decline and even if demand stays constant prices will go up.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 08:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I said "world" to bring in outside-the-EU, since we were supposing a drop in EU consumption. The overall result (EU + extra-EU) could be constant demand, as you say, and of course Peak Oil (diminishing supply) could then determine rising prices.

As you say elsewhere, the matter of what our expectations are about all this has a determining effect on investment decisions taken now. What seems important from this POV is what the engineers, the industry, the technocrats decide is the forecast they will be guiding the money towards. For example, we may not have super-nifty hybrids all over the place in 2030 if the automobile industry decides it is urgent to do nothing (or almost), as at the moment.

BTW, I may have missed it, but I didn't find our point that the auto industry needed coercing into urgent work on energy efficiency and GHG emissions came out very clearly in the summary; just, (p.5):

Some argue that it is only valid if it is part of an energy policy in which biofuels - as a renewable energy source - are integrated into a broader context of e.g. promotion of greater energy efficiency, reduction of fossil fuel use, promotion of clean (vehicle) technology and low-carbon fuels
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 08:35:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, at least the Swedish seem to have the collective mindset of weaning themselves out of oil, and Starvid loves his hybrid scooter... Who cares whether Ford and GM don't develop cool hybrids? There's always Saab.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 08:37:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there are some opportunities for the smaller car companies. While totally new engine development is beyond them financially, there's lot's of other automative technologies that they can excel in - reducing weight, mechanical efficiency, overall size in relation to use, designed for zipcar use, biofuels etc etc

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 12:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"...there are some opportunities for the smaller car companies...there's lot's of other automative technologies that they can excel in - reducing weight, mechanical efficiency, overall size in relation to use, designed for zipcar use, biofuels etc etc"

You will have to work pretty hard to beat Honda and Toyota. They have already squeezed almost all of the fat out of their hybrids...the Honda Insight being the most extreme example...

by asdf on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 11:25:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But Toyota et al are still aiming for large scale production (volume cost efficiency) and thus a one-size-fits-all-solution.

The concrete world of highways and motorways, with nodes for fuelling etc, are a homogeneity all over the world. The one size solution fits this replicated microcosm well.

But all these concrete systems run through very diverse types of landscape and cultures which favour perhaps, different types of vehicles. Seen in this light, the one size solution works less well and offers scope for smaller automotive companies.

To give an example; you can find in some tropical/sub-tropical countries (Thailand eg) the concept of the open flat bed hop on-hop off taxi which cruise main routes. I don't know how efficient these are in terms of fuel use per passenger mile, but I would assume they are fairly good. (Certainly the ones I have been on were always packed). These vehicles are always heavily customised - but possibly only 'decoratively'. But I assume it might be worthwhile to also customise suspension, weight distribution, access etc as well as modifying engine peripherals for greater fuel efficiency under stop-go conditions.

All I am saying is that there are many other types of vehicles than family cars, and there is scope for smaller vehicle companies (I should have said this in my earlier comment, not 'smaller car companies') to provide transport solutions that take better account of the local environment and culture.

Instead of us adapting our lives to the mass produced car and the concrete system that has been built to support it, perhaps it would be more fuel/energy efficient for the vehicles to be adapted to us?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Aug 25th, 2006 at 05:55:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who cares whether Ford and GM don't develop cool hybrids? There's always Saab.

SAAB is owned by GM. Volvo is owned by Ford.

by Trond Ove on Sat Aug 26th, 2006 at 01:35:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just wait until supply begins to fall.  As I've said, there are two ways for us to make the transition from oil: The interventionist way, in which we use the tax code and regulations to "drive the market" (as they say in monetary policy), and the market way.  I guarantee we do not want to do it the market way, because it's going to be a lot tougher.  One way or another, we're going to have to make the transition, but, under the purely market scenario, a lot of people are going to suffer a lot of pain as prices continue to rise, whereas the interventionist way offers, I think, a smooth transition by comparison.  Prices are going to rise at much faster rates when we move to the right side of the peak.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sat Aug 26th, 2006 at 03:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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