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Well, until Israel enters NATO, this is not so much a job for NATO as it is for the UN, and the UN is looking like the loser to me.  Well, all the dead people are the real losers, but reputation-wise, the UN is fumbling once again.  Perhaps precisely because of the dynamics created by NATO.  In that case, NATO is still the winner, as it looks like the US is still capable of holding the rest of Europe hostage to its will, as one can still not move forward with a ceasfire or anything really without the blessing of America. In practice, NATO is relatively synonymous with the US.  The UN is not, and should not be.

Europe voicing frustration is perhaps a baby step in the right direction (though if you look to the run up to Iraq, it's nothing new).  But until Europe's actions defy the will of America, I won't believe there's been any significant reailignment of power or disentigration of NATO.

But is the world big enough for a NATO and a UNSC?  It sure doesn't look like it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:18:42 PM EST
I think once Europe's actions start defying the will of the US we'll be on our way to an EU/US trade war.

I wonder how close the US is to being defined as a pariah state. If the EU starts looking East rather than West it could easily link with China and Russia for trade, and the US would be out in the cold.

I don't think this is likely at the moment, but disgust with US foreign policy seems almost universal now. If the smaller kids realise that they have what it takes to gang up on the bully, the results could be interesting.

More deliverate destabilisation in the ME might be enough to make that happen.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The difficulty in accomplishing that is for the smaller kids to be willing to make the commitment to share their lunch money in order to keep the bully from stealing it.

I think a more likely scenario is that somebody like China eventually becomes strong enough to be the new bully. The little kids will then be paying protection money to a different mob.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do nto see any bully emerging in the near future. there will be regional powers.. (or regional bullies). But the US is no longer a bully in Asia...and I would start guessing that in Latin America is no longer as strong as it used to be. Aoon any influence in latin AMerica will be very very difficult to implement with all the European influence

And the US is no longer a bully in europe or Russia... they just can not force us to do their bidding.

They still have the MIddle East , though... and they want to keep it badly....the ring to control them all and keep being a bully...but I do not think it will work...We are for a multipolar...the main and relevant variables seem very robust....only a badly managed transition from oil could change the picture...and still it will only for a more fragmented world.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 05:46:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think this is likely at the moment, but disgust with US foreign policy seems almost universal now. If the smaller kids realise that they have what it takes to gang up on the bully, the results could be interesting.

I presume you mean of the 'may you live in interesting times' sort of interesting.  

by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:32:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As if it's in the hands of anyone other that the US to decide whether we will live in interesting times.

We should stay the heck out of the Middle East right now. If the US and Israel want to set it on fire we're not going to be able to stop them, so let's delay the moment when we get burnt. We might just escape with minor blisters.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the problem.

Everyone's waiting for Bush's reign to end so that the adults and experts can shake hands again.

If you move now, two years before the term is over, you might get caught with your pants down. That's the big problem right there.

You're talking about tectonic plates moving, ith all the residual economic and cultural effects. In the face of another US election two Novembers from this one, I bet no one moves a finger toward the East.

by Upstate NY on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 08:54:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The US will get another Neocon as president in 2008 and that will be it.

The US really is pushing the limits of the international system of alliances built by Truman and Ike. Bolton and Rice's diplomacy makes the most sense if you imagine them thinking "let's see how far they let me go". European governments are paralysed with disbelief and cognitive dissonance.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 03:44:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to the hilt. Actually they may back Israel more than our repubs, so any changes in US leadrship will not ease real tensions between the US unquestioning backing of Israel and the rest of the worlds increasing disquiet with Israel which is increasingly seen as an aggressive pariah state. In fact Israel and the US would probably be corrctly identified as the two states most likely to endanger world peace.
That is hard to accept as an American, but it is undeniably true.
by observer393 on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 11:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Insititutions are as relevant as their memeber wanthem to be.

NATO was bnever relevant per se..it was the meeting point..evne in Soviet Times.

the same goes on now. The question is not NATo but what kind of relation will the US and Frnace/Germany  will have in the future.

Regarding the UN..actually, given that it opposed the Iraq war and that the insititution is looking for a solution even with the US inside shows, to me, that the UN is far away from falling... It gains respect for standing up  and it loses at the same time because some governments do not want it to work.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 05:41:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this comment of mine on a parallel thread could also be a reply to this.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 09:23:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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