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Both the UN and the EU are effectively immobilized from taking action in a controversial situation by the requirement of unanimous agreement. NATO is being used as a replacement for the UN. Every time it sponsors an intervention that the UNSC did not formally authorize, it acquires another precedent for replacing the authority of the UN.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:34:21 PM EST
NATO doesn't have any authority except as a way for US governments to argue to the US public that an action is being taken with international backing. But, since NATO is simply an arm of US policy, that's just an elaborate deception.

UN has some legitimacy and authority, but if the US is hell-bent on undermining it there isn't much the rest of the world can do about it.

We have to recognize one thing: the UNSC is configured for the purpose of avoiding war between Great Powers [defined as having veto power, or by virtue of having veto power, it's a chicken-and-egg situation]. Any of them can veto a resolution authorising the use of force by the others. By the same token, the Great Powers can ride roughshod over international law, as they can veto condemnation of themselves (or their clients: see Israel). The problem of late has been the US' willingness to hijack unrelated UN actions (like renewing the mandates of humanitarian missions) to obtain concessions that the international community was not otherwise prepared to give. This is the best we can hope for: the permanent members of the UNSC can burn the planet to a crisp is they go to war against each other, and so the international system has to be designed to prevent that above all else. Preventing other wars and promoting peace among the rest of the counntries is, in practice, a desirable secondary goal.

Since the US is going to exercise its naked power whether we like it or not, we should simply dispose of NATO. I don't want Europe to be the US' fig leaf.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are quite correct that NATO doesn't have authority that it has acquired by countries signing a treaty the way the UN has acquired its authority under international law. However, every time that NATO is used to "legitimize" and invasion and occupation it acquires the "authority" of precedent. Everyone who participates in that action or fails to vigorously protest it is contributing to that acquisition of "authority". So far Russia and China have the primary voices of dissent and they are often oblique.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My argument is that NATO action without UN authorisation doesn't have legitimacy or authority with the public in NATO members other than the US. Maybe it does with the governments of the UK and "new Europe" to use Rumsfeld's quip.

Kosovo is the only precedent for NATO action without UNSC authorisation. I don't think there will be another any time soon.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have run across some British people on the net who see NATO as the necessary vehicle to bring order to an increasingly chaotic world. I don't have any polls to demonstrate have pervasive this attitude is in the UK, but I think it represents more than just a few people. It was the British who first pushed the US to establish NATO. The dream of empire has not entirely died. These people tend to think that the Kosovo intervention was something to celebrate. I expect you could find similar opinions in France and Germany, certainly not a majority by a long shot, but likely people with a good bit of influence.

I think the chances of a NATO action in defiance of the UNSC are very real. Sudan is a good possibility for it.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:30:00 PM EST
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Sometimes I think the UK belongs to "Anglo-Saxonia", not Europe. We'll have to agree to disagree on this. The largest public demonstrations ever in Europe [Madrid, London, Rome in February/March 2003] have happened to oppose governments aligning themselves with US policy. Gerhard Shroeder snatched electoral victory from the jaws of defeat simply by opposing Bush on Iraq.

I don#t see a reason, if puch comes to shove, for Russia or China to veto an intervention in Sudan, so NATO won't intervene there without a UNSC resolution unless the US chooses not to seek a resolution (like in Afghanistan, by the way) and in that case NATO won't follow (though some NATO members may, like the UK or the Czech Republic). Remember the US chose not to use NATO for the Afghanistan campaign precisely because [Chomsky alert!] according to the NATO treaty it was legitimate for NATO to intervene if Afghanistan was identified as the culprit for 9/11. The US has no more interest in lending legitimcay to the NATO charter than to the UN charter, because if the NATO charter acquires legitimacy it becomes another straitjacket for US action.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:38:25 PM EST
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I don't disagree with you for a moment that the UK has always held itself aloof from Europe. I don't think we have anything to disagree about on that point. I certainly agree that the dominant public opinion in continental Europe is in opposition to US policy. I'm simply saying that there are likely other groups with political leverage who see it differently.

China has already opposed some of the more aggressive moves regarding Sudan. They have oil interest and clients there. I think there is a very real possibility that they would veto a UNSC resolution that wasn't to their liking. They are regularly using their veto power as a lure to establish closer ties with African states. They just persuaded Chad to break ties with Taiwan.

I agree that the US would not let a commitment to the NATO charter get in its way, but it constrains their actions less than the UN charter so for the moment it's useful. It is a place where Russia and China have no voice at all.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 07:01:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I certainly agree that the dominant public opinion in continental Europe is in opposition to US policy. I'm simply saying that there are likely other groups with political leverage who see it differently.

Sure, like these guys.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 08:17:30 PM EST
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Among others.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 08:35:04 PM EST
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You will find they're all connected.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 08:47:47 PM EST
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Good grief. Thanks for the link.


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sapere aude
by Number 6 on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 09:50:29 AM EST
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According to its website the EPP is "a family of the political centre whose roots are deep in the history of European civilization. It unites like-minded national parties, in EU Member States and in EU applicant countries and we maintain close contact with decided probable candidate countries."
The political centre, my ass.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 09:57:11 AM EST
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"... unites ... "
".. maintain close contact ..."

Goldwater Moment for Europe?

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sapere aude

by Number 6 on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 10:12:15 AM EST
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Both the UN and the EU are effectively immobilized from taking action in a controversial situation by the requirement of unanimous agreement.
Okay, how about NATO?
The meetings of the North Atlantic Council are chaired by the Secretary General of NATO and, when decisions have to be made, action is agreed upon on the basis of unanimity and common accord. There is no voting or decision by majority. Each nation represented at the Council table or on any of its subordinate committees retains complete sovereignty and responsibility for its own decisions.
Oh, so that's why the US says it acts "with NATO allies", as opposed to "with NATO". Because except for Kosovo you can't get a consensus to act unless there is UN authorisation. It's all about "coalitions of the willing".

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 05:58:53 AM EST
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Your observation is correct. The US is not able to formally impose its will on NATO in all circumstances. However, since it excludes Russia and China there is less dissent to contend with. That is what happened with Kosovo. I think there is a definite possibility of getting NATO consent for an intervention in Sudan in the event of a Chinese veto in the UNSC.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 10:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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