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The Iran hostage crisis was something completely different and was almost pure blowback for US interference in Iran.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 02:32:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean Iran existed before 1979?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:25:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently so. Weird, isn't it? It's almost as if there was thousands of years of real history in the Middle East.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:36:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean, seriously, what US meddling do you speak of?
Known as Persia until 1935, Iran became an Islamic republic in 1979 after the ruling monarchy was overthrown and the shah was forced into exile. (CIA World Factbook)


Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:49:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not want to speak for Colman, but he may be referring to the CIA overthrow of Mohammad Mossadegh. Covered in All the Shah's Men & Robert Fisk has a chapter on it in the Great War for Civilization. Fisk enters the story of Mossadegh by starting after the American Embassy has been taken over. The title of the chapter is "the Carpet Weavers". After the embassy was taken over, a group of Iranian students began taping together shredded documents. This was an effort to learn as much as they could about the US' involvement in Iran during the reign of the Shah after the overthrow of Mossadegh.

In reviewing "All the Shahs' Men" the Economist took a similar perspective about the taking over of the US Embassy to what Colman is saying. The Economist stated that the US embassy was taken over to make sure that the US could not meddle in Iranian history again, as it had w/ Mossadegh.

Fisk, describes how in the early days of the Iranian revolution there was not the blood bath/ reign of terror quality to it, that was soon to come. However, as the religious leaders became more seated in power, then it quickly turned into a killing spree with widespread public hangings.

There is a recording of a talk given by the author of "All the Shah's Men", Stephen Kinzer,  on Alternative Radio. Along with asking the question would we(the US) be in the mess it is today had it not overthrown a democratically elected Prime Minister (I think Mossadegh was a PM) Kinzer draws parallels between the intelligence back then and the intelligence leading up to the current Iraq war. Kinzer -or another journalist spoke with several of the foreign service officers who were in Tehran during the rise of Mossadegh. These foreign service officers were sending back information that Mossadegh was associated with Communist and that Communism was growing in Iran. Kinzer states that all other historical evidence does not show this to be the case. When he (or this other journalist) asked these foreign services officers about this discrepancy they replied that they were aware that their reports were overblown, but Washington wanted to hear that Mossadegh was a Communist and that there was a growing Communist threat in Iran.

by aden on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:35:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was a snark. I was pointing out that, conveniently, the CIA glosses over Mossadegh and the Shah in their little history blurb.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahh! Sorry. I didn't pick up on the snark.
by aden on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:00:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's for the lesson, even though Migeru was being snide.Reza Islam mentions that the revolution in Iran was hijacked by the religious crowd, somewhat to the surprise of a lot of the participants.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:46:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Thanks for the lesson."
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:00:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fisk takes a similar perspective about the revolution.

It is an interesting conundrum for the US. We have been hearing the rhetoric about spreading Democracy in the Middle East, but we never hear about Mossadegh.

by aden on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I long awaited an occasion to post this from Billmon:

This is the United States of Amnesia, and history is for losers. (A friend of mine likes to say that in the Middle East, what happened a thousand years ago is far more important than yesterday's news. Here, they're both irrelevant.)


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 04:48:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the Munich Olympics terrorists weren't Islamists.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 04:49:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree to a point that it was blowback, but blowback comes in different shapes and sizes. Nobody forced those people to take civilian hostages, even if they do represent the interests of the United States. Just like nobody forced the killing of the Israeli athletes in Munich. Two wrongs don't make a right. We do plenty of self-critique in here and discuss what the Western world does wrong, yet critisizing anyone else seems almost a taboo in here.

Mikhail from SF
by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At what point did anyone suggest that it was right?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:12:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Calling diplomats "civilians" is somewhat a stretch. They certianly are a political target.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Calling diplomats "civilians" is somewhat a stretch. They certianly are a political target.

With greater protections under international law than civilians.  

by MarekNYC on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 02:13:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whenever anyone else is criticised, citizens or allies of that someone else call foul: "ET is anti-{American|British|Russian|Muslim|Semite}".

I personally feel entitled to justify those I can identify with in one way or another. To criticise "the other", especially when they are not a part of the conversation, doesn't seem very productive.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean "entitled to criticise"...

Damn typos.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 05:15:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That would have been believable, had I not recently witnessed a barrage of posts aimed at critisizing the Israeli offensive in Lebanon without much presence of the "other" side to defend or argue on their behalf.

Mikhail from SF
by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:35:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did say in that barrage that the reason I found Israel's behaviour so disturbing is that they're "us".

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:10:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beg your pardon? There were messy, you, wchurchill, Marek, kcurie and a few others to present various pro-Israeli-attack-on-Lebanon positions, and you did so. More fitting for the original argument, while messy is probably an Israeli and kcurie lives part-time there, we have not a single Lebanese (or Palestinian, or Arab) contributor.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:02:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, let's have a look at what you want equal time for.

  1. You made much of IDF allegations that the UN post was bombed because Hezbollah fighters hid nearby. I pointed out already back then that evidence doesn't support the claims -- and now the IDF changed its story, too: they shifted to claim errors on their map.

  2. As for the supposed careful targeting of Hezbollah fighters and the moral high ground, yet another thing Israeli PM Olmert said:

"The claim that we lost is unfounded. Half of Lebanon is destroyed; is that a loss?"


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:39:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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