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Fascinating. Didn't know people were still calling for new steam locos. But with the passion held by many for the old ones it isn't that surprising I guess. When Helen was talking about Porta as a might-have-been, it seems to me that she meant that Porta could have done even greater things if he had been allowed.

You might want to include her article url to your diary. http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2006/7/12/84724/0583

And welcome to eurotrib!

by Trond Ove on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 08:58:46 AM EST
Thanks I'll take your advice on Helen's article.

I have to come clean and admit I speak from an enthusiast's point of view. However my interest has always been more in the technological history side and when I try to analyse it all I am fascinated by systems. When I first started regularly using the net I soon found out that there were new steam projects of all kinds in the wind: railway, marine, road transport etc. The article by the Swiss engineer Roger Waller was one of the first I came across; the other was the Australian, Ted Pritchard's site where he described his steam car development in the 1960s and 70s. He really took it a long way, but as he depended on state support, funding finally fizzled out in 1978. However he was invited to the United States with his modified Ford Falcon where notably it underwent emissions tests giving the lowest figures recorded up to that time, and this due to the intrinsic technology and not to add-ons of the type needed for IC engines.

Waller in his article, although using the radically different Stephensonian technology was claiming similar results - as did Porta. The real advantages from the emissions point of view are drastically reduced CO carbon monoxide and NOx emissions. So I thought it was worth looking into further.

Yes, the steam locomotive is a very beautiful dynamic object, and when when actually in steam almost a living being and I will be the last person to deny that. However I am not conducting a "bring-back-the-steam-locomotive" campaign as such. I sincerely believe however that in the present world situation all types of technology should be given a fair crack of the whip and objectively assessed - and we should hurry up about it.

The great advantage of the steam process to my mind is that power production is separate from power delivery. In an IC engine the two actions are combined in an "ultra short" process which demands that to deliver power the engine must turn at a minimum speed; this in turn demands various transmission devices. Steam on the other hand is a "long" process: the heat source boils water and makes steam, generally used by the cylinders to apply power directly to the wheel-rim, moreover it is effective from 0 rpm. (This is why I think that using electric drive whilst feasible is a waste of time as it throws away one of the main advantages of steam). Theoretically the process is less thermally efficient, as there are more opportunities for losses between each stage. People like Chapelon and Porta identified these losses that were long underestimated, showed how they can be minimised. This to my mind was their biggest contribution although they Chapelon also studied structure, vehicular behaviour - Porta tribology...

Separating the heat process from power delivery means that:
a) a wide variety of solid, liquid and gaseous fuels may be burnt with little or no modification.
b) combustion efficiency can be maximised more or less independently of power demands (with intermittent burners it would become completely independent), which is what gives the low emissions. Porta achieved this with coal through use of a thick low-temperature firebed with a quantity of steam injected to keep the heat at cherry-red (about 700°C). That's why he avoided the conventional white-hot fire.

As for "might-have-been", the problem is that it is a highly-charged word that for some people might imply failure. Also I am a bit touchy about steam being considered a thing of the past. I would prefer "might still be".

John of Paris

by JohnofParis (wrightdotperrierarrobasfreedotfr) on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 11:45:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I guess it is great that it isnt spewing as much carbon monoxide as diesel, but what about carbon dioxide? And how efficient would a steam engine be compared to an electric loc fuelled by a coal plant? I guess I could see a posibility of a renaissanse for steam in specific roles, such as on certain passenger routes, etc. But other than that I am not sure, unless there is a SERIOUS energy crunch coming. (Which some people on this board seems to be arguing. I remain sceptical, at least towards doomsday scenarios.)
by Trond Ove on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 01:23:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too, but reducing carbon monoxide and nitrous oxide emissions without filters is a good start that we've not made yet! In any case as long as we burn things, we'll produce carbon dioxide. The only solution there is nuclear, but that's putting us under a permanent sword of Damocles and things only have to go seriously wrong once in a heavily populated area (You will gather that I'm not really in favour of that particular "green" solution). But I do find the Peak oil argument pretty convincing.  The thing is there is an energy/pollution crisis which demands action. This demands, not doomsday scenarios but vision - finding the best means to eke out what seems to be left. If there's a bit more than we think, so much the better for future generations.
As for coal-burning power-stations, can't say. Electric motive power is very efficient in itself but demands heavy infrastructure. Chapelon pointed out that the problem of electrification is the extent of line losses which means that, depending on the distance involved, you have to produce considerably more electricity than you will ever be able to use. This holds good for all national grids whatever the source - steam - i.e. nuclear (yes a nuclear power station after all is a steam engine), coal or oil-fired... hydro wind...
 Chapelon was of the opinion (in the 1930s!) that you had to adapt fuels to needs. His position at that time was that it was wise to continue with coal for the the railways leaving imported fuels for the uses where it was indispensable i.e. the roads. I don't know what his views on maritime applications were. The situation now may be a bit different, but you have to admit the man had vision at a time when they believed in of an unlimited energy cornucopia.
On a more mundane level, steam could well be used for cross-country passenger services and rail freight where medium power diesel locomotives are at present employed. The technology is there waiting in the wings and production could be geared up within a relatively short time scale - 10 years?  The 5AT project already mentioned is for a small locomotive with a top speed of 200 km/h and 1890 kW/2535 hp at the draw bar - more than ample for current needs. I also spoke of Waller's proposition for Russia but did not mention his current project for a suburban line in the Basel district http://www.modern-steam-hauenstein.ch/.

John of Paris
by JohnofParis (wrightdotperrierarrobasfreedotfr) on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 05:18:22 PM EST
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