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Excellent diary.

I wonder if in theological terms it's possibly more the difference between Practical Capitalism and Symbolic Capitalism - Symbolic Capitalism being the purer and more holy of the two, because it's untainted by the dirt and sweat of physical reality.

Symbolic Capitalism is Platonic Capitalism - rule by numbers and rarefied abstract concepts. The numbers are defined by the rules of the game. They define the aims of the game. They're purely theoretical.

I found a fascinating and disturbing quote by a UK rail boss this week, in which he said that it was 'nonsense' to criticise the UK's insane franchising and privatisation system because the UK has 'the best growth of any railway in Europe.'

That quote is so wrong in so many ways that I really have no idea where to start with it. But it's indicative of the 'growth above all else' mind set that underpins symbolic capitalism.

As long as there's growth, nothing else matters. Not only is nothing more important than growth, but nothing else can even be considered as a factor - except possibly grudgingly if the 'costs' make enough noise that you have to throw them a bone to get them to shut up for a while.

So in the case of rail, high growth for the last couple of years trumps that the fact that the shiny new market-driven symbolic system relies on public subsidies that are five times greater in real terms than when the railways were nationalised, and provides a service that offers poorer service availability and longer travel times.

The whole thing really is quite mad.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:23:30 AM EST
Oh, and despite the growth,  they are seriously floating the idea of making people stand in commuter trains. People are quite upset, and so are the tabloids in fact.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:33:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But of course. It's not service growth he's talking about.

And it's a stupid canard anyway, because passenger figures plummeted after a few high profile accidents. So a big part of the 'growth' is really just the process of returning to pre-disaster levels.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 11:30:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Disasters which were attributed to the decoupling of infrastructure and service in damning reports.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 11:32:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep. Easily avoidable.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:20:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At the radio studio where I was yesterday, some guy (I don't remember who right now, but a right wing guy, I think) said that Anglo-Saxon capitalism focused on doing more, while the French (dirigisme and/or population) focused on doing better - better quality of life, better infrastructure, etc...

Self-serving and partial, but the insight is not completely silly.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:41:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Aka Quantity vs Quality. If only we could do both.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 11:14:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If only economists accepted that sometimes the best answer is not a unique point on a single scale but an indifference surface in a multi-dimensional space...

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 11:17:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are asking for economists to become true Bayesians, I guess :)
by Sargon on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 02:21:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bayesianism is the only way to make sense of the "market expectations" underpinning mathematical finance.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 03:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
May I suggest the "market," lacks a neuro-physiology or schemata and cannot "expect" anything.  Agents and Actors within the "market" (Fitness Landscape) have one or both and it is there expectation occurs.

I know the phrase is a commonplace in the Finance 'biz' but it's sloppy terminology leading, as laboratory experiments have shown, to neo-liberalism in rats.  (lol)

by ATinNM on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 03:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Prices satisfy the axioms for  a mathematical expectation [i.e., expected value, or mean value], so no anthropomorphism there. Besides, individual market participants do have expectations which collectively give rise to the market expectation (two different meanings of expectation in the same sentence)

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 04:10:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's not the problem. The problem is - as usual - that the wrong variables are being measured for the wrong reasons and modelled using the wrong techniques.

What's the impact on GDP of guaranteeing every citizen who wants it a high quality post-18 education?

What's the influence on GDP of a Van Gogh painting which was practically worthless while he was alive but now changes hands for tens or hundreds of millions?

What's the impact on GDP of the homeless?

Without a concept of cultural value, to balance out book value, conventional accounting is socially meaningless.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 04:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that GDP is calculated not in "Value" - whatever that is, and I think there are many types of intangible and unmeasurable Value - but in "Claims over Value" aka IOU's issued by Banks.

It's exactly the same relationship as that between Matter and anti-Matter: we have Value and anti-Value.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 04:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How can "price" be the wrong variable to measure for the wrong reason? It's just about the only measurable thing in economics. And how did GDP get into the discussion?

Socially irrelevant, I'll give you that, to an extent.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 05:51:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dunno where GDP came from.

"Price" and "Value" Oscar Wilde had the measure of when he defined the Cynic.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 06:18:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand why any of this is supposed to be controversial.

'Price' means nothing, except that someone is prepared to pay X for an item or service at a particular point in time.

GDP comes from aggregating all of these transactions with some rather nominal national weightings and producing a measure of something which supposedly correlates to wealth.

But if a social relationship or physical process can't be reduced to a transaction with a price, it doesn't appear on the books, and in economic terms it's invisible.

The big problem - the one that I haven't seen any economist try to tackle, from Keynes downwards - is how to explicitly include these relationships so that they do appear as factors.

Most people when asked will tell you that it's these social and cultural relationship that define real value - in the sense of what makes life worth living.

So where are these values in economic theory? There's occasionally a bit of handwaving about quality of life, but there's no explicit concern with these relationships. In fact they're often considered a dangerous distraction.

This is why businesses allowed to lay people off to pump up the bottom line. The social costs are very real. But they're only calculated indirectly. And even then, it's not the businesses that pay for them.

The point is that these costs are real. You can't dismiss them as subjective because the concept of price is equally subjective - it's one microscopically narrow view of one very tiny subset of human interactions. And if anything these other transactions are more real to people's experience than anything in classical economic theory.

So not including them in a theory of wealth is dysfunctional. Saying they're hard to measure is irrelevant if there's no serious attempt being made to measure them and include them in policy decisions at all.

And in the meantime we're seeing endless, and quite possibly terminal, examples of that dysfunctionality happening today.

The corollary is that if you measure the right things, many problems become simpler because you have a direct handle on them. What we have now is rather too much energy expended on one-dimensional measures like inflation and unemployment and GDP and interest rates, papering over a lingering sense of unease that something isn't right in our culture, but it's impossible to clarify or quantify what it is.

A saner system would reverse that.

More than that - my guess is that a healthy culture is far less likely to have problems like inflation and unemployment anyway.

If relationships are functional and inclusive rather than predatory, a lot of the supposed problems in economic theory will very likely vanish, because the system as a whole will be operating at a much more intelligent and spontaneously organised level.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 07:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The idea of Pareto optimality does include the idea that "better-than" relationships create only a partial order of value, which leads to a kind of indifference that is, in a mathematical sense, even more radical.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 02:47:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's more that the Anglo-Saxon mindset believes there's something rather naughty about enjoying life and playing. And something heroic about working and accumulating stuff for its own sake.

It's not that the work has to be truly productive. It's more that it has to be busy. And the more busy the better.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:23:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems like a case of obsessive-compusive disorder.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:26:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Much like posting on blogs.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 02:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An overemphasis on growth follows, in part, from the mistaken (largely tacit) premise that increase in quantity leads to increase in quality. The opposite direction of causality is strong: increase in one sort of quality, efficiency and productivity, is an essential enabler for growth. The reverse, however, is weak: past a certain point, increases in quantity are less and less important to increases in quality. I will focus here on a technological aspect of quality that is already narrower than general quality of life (though it can help support it).

The reason for this declining return to scale that gross material wealth°, past a certain point, isn't the chief limit on the innovations and refinements that constitute increasing (technological) quality. Cultural support for these, and available educated brains, are stronger factors. Research budgets are largely spent to pay for those brains, and their number doesn't increase in proportion to gross material wealth per capita. Cost of equipment is more relevant, but much of the important work isn't greatly equipment-intensive -- it involves designing and modifying things that are being made anyway.

The weakness of causality in one direction is masked by the strong correlation that results from causality in the other direction. That is, creativity and innovation may seem to follow from high levels of gross material wealth, when they instead enable it (for better or worse).

------------
° By "gross material wealth", I mean a measure of wealth that gives little weight to quality of life in a broad sense.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 02:41:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you are discussing the actual output of goods and services, this is a pretty interesting description.  But I must admit to a serious anti-Brit prejudice that I have had since an Austin-Healy sports car made me walk home because its axle twisted off while driving straight and level.  So far as I know, the British version of capitalism has no meaningful industrial output any longer and is based solely on moving electronic manifestations of money inside some computer chips.

On the other hand, the French gained control of goods that defined the "good life" sometime during Louis XIV and have managed to maintain their hold on most of this market since.  So designing an economy to produce excellence is obviously a superior strategy.

But since we are touting national economic characteristics--allow me to add a few.

The Japanese believe that there is no detail too small and that nothing is ever finished and that improvement is always possible.  This makes for incredible products--especially complex ones like cars and video cameras.

The Germans and Nordics seem to concentrate their economic energy on being excellent at the invisible details.  If you have never heard of the product, have no idea what it does, and it is somehow critically important for an industrial society--these guys probably build it better than anyone.

And of course, how can we ignore USA industrialization.  In 1971, I heard a guy shout to a group of volunteers who were trying to organize a production of HMS Pinafore, "People! TRY to do this right!  But if you cannot do it well, do it BIG!" I have never heard the USA philosophy of everything said better.


"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 03:30:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have to stop mucking with the Money Supply.  

As long as the money supply is growing British Rail, or whatever, has to grow at the effective rate of the increase just to stay the same - in PPP.  

by ATinNM on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 02:12:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Incredible insight--Platonic Capitalism.

This concept requires far more thought and energy to digest that I can give in a quick comment.

But I really like it!


"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 03:34:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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