EU Constitution embarrassing the UK - so it blames Royal | 70 comments (70 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

the UK would get left behind as a core group moves forward

Same difference.

As to Ireland, you guys are in the euro, so why wouldn't you be part of the core group? Just put it to a referendum...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 09:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (4.00 / 1)

Depends on the consequences: we already can't join Schengen because the UK won't. MInd you, a UK refusal would probably help the yes vote here ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:00:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (4.00 / 1)

You need to write a diary explaining Ireland's structural dependence on the UK, which you bring up any time people think of doing something without Britain.

Also, how would a break-up of the UK into England plus Celtic nations (Scotland, Wales, Cornwall) affect things?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:02:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

You need to write a diary explaining Ireland's structural dependence on the UK, which you bring up any time people think of doing something without Britain.

It's called "Northern Ireland". We've got an open border with the UK so we're constrained on border and immigration policy. We can't close the border as that would have unacceptable effects on people in border counties.

Thinking about it, I don't think that would have much effect on the enhanced cooperation things except on travel policy: you'd still need passport and border checks, and it's not as if you can simply walk from Ireland to France.

The UK leaving the EU might be problematic - we have to move stuff through them - but that's a matter of negotiating details.

I have no idea what the effect of a splintering UK would have. I doubt a federal unUK would have much effect, but full independence for lots of bits would be interesting, in the Chinese proverb sense.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:11:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

Ah.

All you need is an independent Ulster with an open border.

How Eurosceptic is Northern Ireland?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:15:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

I don't think the North is very Eurosceptic. It would need huge subventions from the EU to support an independent state - its economy doesn't work very well at all as far as I know.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

Well, Northern Ireland does receive structural funds.

The question is, if the choice was to stay in the Union with England or to stay in the EU, what would happen? Another flare-up?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:23:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

I'd expect a breaking-up UK to alter the political scenario in the North in all sorts of ways, but I'm damned if I could guess the outcome. It's not a stable, linear system!

I mean, the whole point of Unionists is to stay in the Union. Would Commonwealth membership suffice for them? But the North has strong Scottish links. Can you imagine a Kingdom of Northern Ireland and Scotland?

Republicans would be emboldened by a break-up and I'd expect to see violent elements reasserting themselves - probably on both sides. It then depends how that cascades. Remember that originally British troops arrived in the North to protect Nationalists from Unionists.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:28:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Isn't Scotland Catholic, too?

When the "Conservative and Unionist Party" seems bent on getting an English Parliament, Unionism be damned, it seems that Scottish Unionists are not in control of their future...

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:46:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (4.00 / 3)

Scotland? Catholic? Uh, no:

Just over two-thirds (67%) of the Scottish population reported currently having a religion. More than six out of ten people said that their religion was Christian (65%): 42% Church of Scotland, 16% Roman Catholics and 7% Other Christian.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

Oh, I see you've covered why this might be a problem.

What is the demographics in N Ireland now? Aren't birthrate and emigration differentials slowly wiping out the demographic advantage the unionists historically had?

I'd say your six nations side might have a better go at the stade de france with a bit more help from up there...

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

But, they do get help from "up there" - rugby is a "united Ireland" game.

by det on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 02:07:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

I did not know that. Wonder why they don't do football that way.

Well, since you put it that way, and since rugby is the superior sport, perhaps they should consider political boundaries the way they do rugby boundaries.

Suspect the SNP would agree as well...

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 02:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Cricket is also organised on an all Ireland basis.

The difference is that rugby union and cricket, in Ireland, are predominantly middle class sports. Association football (or soccer) is more of a working class game and thus more influenced by the passions of partition.

That is my theory anyway.

by Gary J on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 08:54:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Among the children, the Catholics already have a majority. It's close enough to breakeven overall to predict a Catholic majority in a few decades even if the birthrate difference will be eliminated. I'll dig up the statistics in a few minutes.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 04:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Few minutes became hours, but anyway: check pages 30-33 (pdf pages 24-27) of this pdf, which lists community belonging (e.g. religion or parents' religion) according to age in the 2001 census.

Overall:
Protestants (total) 895,377
Catholics (total) 737,412
(I'd estimate that since 2001, Protestants must have remained about level, while Catholics must have added some 25,000.)

Among those aged 73 or older, Protestants are more than twice of Catholics. In the peak year for Protestant (and a boomer generation peak for Catholics), age 36 in 2001, Protestants still maintain a lead, albeit one shrunk to 20% (14,253 : 11,822).

For every single age 24 years old or younger, Catholics are ahead. On the crest of the next demographic wave (and the peak year for Catholics), age 16, Catholics are 13% ahead (12,321 : 13,918). Although the advantage lessened somewhat among the early and pre-teens, it's again higher among the babies, with the <1 years group showing the record 15.9% Catholic advantage over Protestants.

Note though, among the youngest, there is also a record 9.2% with 'no religious background'.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 08:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (4.00 / 2)

Simpler solution: give Ireland back to the Irish.

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:00:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

There's the little issue of those nasty Unionist paramilitaries.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:01:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

That's what jails are for.

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:05:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

Which Irish?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:37:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

The real ones?

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

???

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

I don't know, maybe we could get those Irish-Americans to mediate like Clinton with Mitchell (aren't both of those two "Irish-americans"?) and trade the irish-scots in scotland for the scots-irish in ulster. It'd be nicer if those unionists could quit being so bigotted, but since they seem to have a bit of a problem living respectfully and at peace with neighbors who harbor a different view of religion and history than their own, maybe alternatives are preferable...

Not enough irish-scots to compensate for all the orangemen bigots in Ulster? Maybe send some of the Irish-american diaspora back too and get the balances to foot. Fringe benefit for me - Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity taking over whole blocks of RTE programming, and my own airwaves far cleaner!

Course, there might still be a problem with the french-irish too, all those normans with surnames that don't start with o' and mc'. Seem to recall there was a monument built in Wexford to commemorate the 800th anniversary or so of the Norman landing, so maybe some mediation down there will be necessary as well.

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 01:06:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

!!!

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 01:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

oh, i forgot to mention about that monument to the norman arrival - it was blown up.

not everyone thinks it was a good thing, apparently.

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 03:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Who would that be?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Being facetious...

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 01:08:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

Colman can correct me on this, but I imagine the Irish are not at all eager to find themselves playing the UK in a role reversed repeat of the seventies. Things are fairly calm now, why stir them up?

by MarekNYC on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 03:34:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can you explain (none / 1)

why you "can't" join Schegen if Britain won't? Is it because of Northern Ireland? Is is Britain objecting, or the Schengen countries?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:09:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (4.00 / 3)

We'd have to abandon the free-movement area with the UK, which is politically impossible and practically awkward since it would close the Border.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:13:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (none / 1)

Why would you "have" to abandon it? Norway is in Schengen, after all.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (4.00 / 3)

Because movement of people without border control is transitive. If A is permitted from France into Ireland without border control and is then permitted to move from Ireland to the UK without border control then A has moved from France to the UK without border control, which is pretty much what the UK doesn't want.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:35:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (none / 1)

Why not make the easy step of taking advantage of the physical fact that Ireland is an island - any move form Northern Island to mainland UK could require some form of id, whether at the airport (ids checked anyway) or boat?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:38:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (none / 1)

Because Northern Ireland is a part of the UK and they can't institute border checks between two parts of the UK. Politically impossible.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (4.00 / 3)

You are not big on the symbolic side of things, aren't you?

Imagine how Unionists would beel about needing ID to go to the rest of the UK, andnot needing it to go to Ireland.

Plus, as of today, there is no ID requirement in the UK, and no optional national id. You'd need a driver's licence or a passport to go from Northern Ireland to England.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (none / 0)

You'd need a driver's licence or a passport to go from Northern Ireland to England.

But you do already. How do you go between the two places other than by plane or by car/ferry boat?

And yeah, I understand about the symbol. Just hide it behind "security". We don't seem to mind in airports.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (none / 0)

Did you know you don't actually have to carry your driver's licence with you when you drive in the UK? Ot at least so I'm told by Brits.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:56:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (none / 0)

Something is wrong in my argument, I'm describing the current situation as unacceptable to Unionists...

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 11:00:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (none / 0)

To go to the UK they don't need a passport. To go to France they do. They may need some other ID for their carrier - though I don't know if that's true on a ship.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 11:08:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (none / 1)

I looked at the website of a ferry company and they say it is "advised" that UK citizens take some form of ID (though they don't need a passport) with them on the ferry.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 11:18:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you explain (none / 1)

They are?

Well, the point here is that Norway would have had to abandon the Nordic open border agreements, and given the choice they decided to join Schengen. The UK doesn't trust Europe and so whould rather close the border with Ireland if Ireland joined Schengen. But Ireland is in a situation of dependence with respect to the Uk here, so they stay out of Schengen.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:35:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 1)

In fact, it's about time the rules for enhanced cooperation got relaxed and countries stopped feeling guilty about pushing for them.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (4.00 / 2)

I don't know.

It would be much better if we could all move forward together. I have this horrible vision of multiple overlapping enhanced cooperation areas which would be as likely to weaken as strengthen the EU.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:15:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

The enhanced cooperations that visibly worked would attract new members, like the Euro.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:16:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Some countries are in all enhanced cooperations. Unsurprisingly, they are the real core, and include France, Germany, Spain, Italy and quite a few others.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:29:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (4.00 / 2)

Impossible to do.

Enlargement went too fast, starting in 1973.

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

LOL

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:08:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Something puzzles me a bit. In what ways is the UK meaningfully a part of the EU currently? It's not part of Schengen, it's not part of the common currency, it's not part of the TENs. So what the hell is it part of? You can't even say it's fully part of the common market since France made sure to not build a freight rail line to the eurotunnel. As much out of spite as good common sense I'm sure.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 02:46:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

The EU has much more elements than open borders, the Euro and TENs.

The UK is part of the EP, the Coulcil, the Commission, and several regulating or planning bodies, it integrated laws, has Strasbourg as higher instance for trials, integrated some standards, had others taken over by the rest of the EU (for example 230 V as standard voltage), has visa-free travel for citizens, tariff-free travel for goods, pays in money and receives some back for specific purposes (though the main benefits beyond CAP money focus outside England: the local language programs, and the structural funds).

Some corrections: the UK is part of several TENs, check maps just in transport. It is on main axes 02, 13, 14 (all in Britain), 15 (well, not a true axis: Galileo), 21, 26. The problem with freight across Eurotunnel wasn't that France didn't built a freight rail access line -- it did, cross-Chunnel freight transports are ongoing --, but that Eurotunnel was denied the opportunity to operate on SNCF's tracks as a private railfreight company (here we see an unkind side of etatism, but probably it could have been under control if Eurotunnel would have been a joint state company).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 05:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Well, I knew that freight across the eurotunnel was ongoing but one of the specific complaints made by Eurotunnel is that some kind of access line somewhere didn't get built. On the British side it was the CTRL which came in a decade too late and on the French side it was a freight line, the lack of which they're still complaining about even now. If you can figure out what that's about, I'd appreciate it.

As for the TENs, my impression is that Britain isn't actually doing any work to make them a reality. With the CTRL being the sole exception. What Jerome is saying about gas isn't pretty. And the continued hatred of railroads by the Brits is well-known. I guess they stink too much of service publique.

I doubt voltage meant anything since the difference was small to begin with. Visa-less travel certainly doesn't mean anything because it's a bygone conclusion between rich white countries. The USA doesn't have it because it's devolving into savagery. Which leaves the open market and the european budget, both of which work in Britain's favour because it's a sell-out. The same with taking part in European politics which again it does only for its own benefit and in order to sabotage Europe.

So really, the only way that Britain participates in the EU that is non-trivial, willingly, and not completely selfish, is juridically. And even there, Britain does everything it can to avoid being dragged into civilization. Did you know that Britain did everything to minimize a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights to stop the beating of children?

Much like the USA, I haven't heard of a single unalloyed good thing about Britain. Not in my entire life. And you know what? I can cite good things even about Canada and Australia, both of which are anglo and therefore evil.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Sun Jan 21st, 2007 at 02:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

Familiarity breeds contempt, or so the saying goes. And my familiarity with anglo countries has certainly bred my contempt of them. Or has it?

Countries ranked by my familiarity with them:

Canada
USA
France
Great Britain
Australia
Sweden
Japan
..

Countries ranked by my hatred of them:

USA
Great Britain
all of Africa
most of central Asia
..
nearly all of latin America
..
Canada
..
Australia
..
France
Sweden

---

So what do you know, familiarity doesn't breed contempt. It's just a coincidence that the USA and Great Britain both top the list.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Sun Jan 21st, 2007 at 03:08:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (4.00 / 1)

on the French side it was a freight line, the lack of which they're still complaining about even now

It may be that a technical term made you confused. 'Path' in English, 'Trasse' in German, and 'sillon' in French denote a slot on a railway line, e.g. leaving room for a train in the timetable. The problem for Eurotunnel has long been just getting a permit to operate on SNCF tracks on its own. Before the last financial crisis, they finally got close to getting it, but then the crisis managers decided to shelve the issue.

Regarding the TENs, there is the giant work of the WCML upgrade. Both in the price tag and in terms of connections with the rest of Europe, the CTRL is so key that 'sole exception' is underplaying it. It indeed came a decade late, thanks Maggie Thatcher. I'm less familiar with roads and ports. I don't know about "continued hatred of railroads by the Brits", but about continued complaints from (growing in numbers) passengers in the silly chaotic privatised 'system'. I guess there are train haters, but unfortunately there are train-hating car-lovers all over Europe. (Comparing the UK with France, the UK actually has 10% more passenger-journeys even without the Tube, though much less passenger-kilometres, a joint effect of a smaller country and lack of high-speed lines.)

Voltage meant much for power system managers (BTW in some places, it was just 220 to 230 V, in others 110 to 230), and involved standardisation in connections if I am not mistaken. No, visaless travel is not a bygone conclusion, you can grow poor or politics can change. You then go on accusing Britain of thinks all EU members do.

Much like the USA, I haven't heard of a single unalloyed good thing about Britain.

Well, name an unalloyed good think about any other country, and I see if I agree it's unalloyed.

Really, this 100 Years War Re-Match some of you in this thread do in place of EU politics is getting weary with an outside view.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Jan 21st, 2007 at 07:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EU Constitution embarrassing the UK (none / 0)

I can't find the article I read about EWS and Cargo Rail; too much time has passed. Maybe you're right.

I misspoke when I said British. I meant Britain by which I mean the British elites. Since Blair's policies are a continuation of Thatcher's ....

In my other diary, I list a number of unalloyed good things
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2007/1/21/4445/15448

a couple of commentators have listed some unalloyed good things which the UK has done. Unfortunately, they were centuries ago.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:33:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

EU Constitution embarrassing the UK - so it blames Royal | 70 comments (70 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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