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It seems like you confuse "academic discipline" with "science."
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 05:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems you think model-building can be taught.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 05:46:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's even more confusing. After all, even skills can be taught.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 06:45:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Skills are learnt by doing, if at all. They are "taught" by providing a structured environment where they can be exercised, with guidance and correcting mistakes.

It's like essay-writing courses at the university. There isn't much to teach, other than by example and constructive criticism of exercises.

Model-building (like problem-solving or designing algorithms) is a craft, a skill, "an art not a science".

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 07:20:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They are "taught" by providing a structured environment where they can be exercised, with guidance and correcting mistakes.

Take away the scary quotes and you have a good definition of what teaching involves.  You could, I think, replace "taught" with "educated".  The reason I don't think you need the scare quotes is that you seem to imply that the opposite of teaching is what happens.

Reminds me of the "I am a lecturer, not a teacher," arguments, where...in my experience "Drone, drone, drone, drone."  Are we done?  Right.  What books are we supposed to read?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:00:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a difference between knowledge and skills?

If I know something you don't, I can tell it to you, and that's all we need to do.

If I can do something you can't, it's going to be a whole lot harder.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:03:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well...If I don't know the capital of...hmmm...Mozambique, you could tell me and then, if I remembered I could tell someone else.

But if you (as my teacher) produced an atlas, got me to look up Mozambique and find its capital...

So it would depend if there was a teaching context to the passing across of knowledge.

(Very annoying at the train station if you ask, "When's the next train to Huddersfield?" and a helpful person starts explaining the layout of the station, where the boards are with the times, etc...  Well, very annoying if you just want the answer "10:15."  But also, unless you are in a hurry, very useful for the next time and all other times when you need to know the time a train leaves.)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:07:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lending you my library doesn't make me your teacher, though it does reduce my workload.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:11:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless you're paid by how well I do in my exams.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I've confused myself.

I thought you were saying that teaching involved standing in front of people and telling them things (they didn't know.)  I'm sure I got that wrong.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:20:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty much, yes. There is information/knowledge and there is skills. Information can be taught, but the acquisition of skills can only be assisted. Of course, no subject is purely one thing or the other.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:26:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, in that case I should just coach you in the skill of exam-taking. No teaching involved, just drills.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:21:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, we've wandered way off subject, but what do you mean when you say "teach"?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:25:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To me teaching = transmission of knowledge.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:28:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the example above you would be teaching me how to pass the exam.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:33:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can teach you some facts about exam taking, but ultimately if what you want to do is pass exams, I need to coach you and give you drills.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are transmitting knowledge about a subset of a specific subject, in this case "How to pass exam X in subject Y."  In this case, you transmit that knowledge via a correction and encouragement (coaching) technique.  I do the drill, you correct as necessary (and applaud success etc...)

My thought is that you seem to have an idea of a difference between coaching, instructing, setting up scenarios (to relate this back to modelling)...and teaching; whereas I would say they are all teaching methods, though I would use "teaching" to mean perhaps the wider idea of "imparting knowledge (by these various mechanisms) even to those who won't, can't or refuse to learn," with that specific emphasis (and a specific set of skills and potential issues related to it.)  I suppose that runs against the idea of someone being "unteachable" and supports the idea that, in principle, no one is "unteachable".  But I got the idea from your original comment (plus scare quotes) that you have a specific and different idea of what teaching is, which precludes drills, coaching, skills-training etc...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:59:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a fundamental cognitive, even neurological, difference between information and skills.

Teaching is an action in which the teacher is active and the student passive. Learning is an action in which the learner is active and the instructor passive.

Knowledge can be taught, while skills must be learned.

Any discipline is a combination of knowledge and skills, in varying proportions.

ATinNM lists a whole bunch of areas of knowledge that he thinks are relevant to the skill of model building. But those knowledges are usually imparted independently without reference to model building. Conversely, if the goal is model-building, spending a lot of time teaching all that stuff is not going to be very productive.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:08:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Active teacher (passive student) = teaching (= imparting knowledge)
Active student (passive teacher) = learning (= applying knowledge to a specific situation)

?

So in the case of model building:

Teaching = How to build a model
Learning = Building a specific model

?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:14:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Skills are not applied knowledge.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:15:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The more I read that, the more I think, Yes!  A skill is applied knowledge!

So, for you: What is a skill?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:26:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Something you do is a skill. It has nothing to do with knowledge, which is about facts, not doing. Of course, facts can help when you're doing something, and that is applied knowledge. Think motor skills, reading and writing, playing go. All those things that we have a hard time getting robots or computers to do because they have nothing to do with information.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:32:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we're working with different definitions of "knowledge".  You can tell someone a piece of information: "The capital of Mozambique is Kwalumbai".  It's true or false.  But how about if you're teaching someone--How to cook rice?  (This may be your art/science point.)  There is no final single correct answer, but there are teachers, there is knowledge (this is what I mean by knowledge--knowledge of textures, measures, heat, spices, varieties, stirring techniques, how steam acts on the grains, etc...)  To be able to repeat these things would demonstrate memory retention.  To be able to cook a bowl of rice to set criteria would, for me, mean applying that knowledge.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:38:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
rg, there are things you know, and there are things you can. The former are knowledge, the latter are skills. There are fundamental cognitive and neurological differences between them. And there are fundamental differences in the way they are taught and learnt.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:42:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the case of model building...

Teaching epistemology, mathematics, systems theory...
Learning how to build a model... [the teacher can guide the student through worked examples]

One thing we are forgetting is that in order to build a model of something (model-building is a skill that is applied to something else) you have to know something about it (model-building is possible only from knowledge of that thing which one wants to model). Which is what made it next to impossible to teach "applied linear algebra" to people who had no knowledge of anything to which to apply the linear algebra.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:26:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm.  I thought the question was about teaching people how to build a model.  If I might take a non-science example.

I want to build a model of the hill near my house.  I need yadda yadda info about the hill (photos, measurements, pictures, etc...) but...

I don't know how to build a model!  What materials should I use?  Which ones work better than others?  Has anyone done this before?  

Then (with the help of a teacher (trainer/instructor/etc. in this scenario) I lay out my materials and have a go.  The teacher gives me knowledge about "how to build a model".  I then apply that knowledge.  To the extent that I can effectively apply the knowledge...(inculding how to smooth surfaces, create realistic grass etc...) then I can now attempt to model the hill...

?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:31:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can now attempt to model the hill...

I mean "I can now attempt to build a model of the hill."

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:32:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
rg, I suggest that you take it from here and make a diary out of it, because this thread is pushing way to the right of the screen, and we're getting nowhere.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And there I was enjoying myself...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:43:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apologies for gazoinking your diary, ATinNM, I got carried away.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:54:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No apologies needed, the discussion was fascinating.

A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run
by ATinNM on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:21:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah...good!  I was getting worried there.  Looked up from my pint and realised I'd wandered very sideways.

Hey, New Mexico is...stunning!



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:35:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The top image is a picture of Rancho Church perhaps known to you from the Georgia O'Keefe painting:



A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run

by ATinNM on Thu Jan 25th, 2007 at 12:22:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tell your 6 year old to model the hill. Do you think she's going to care about all that stuff? She's just going to go and do it. Then you can argue with her about the quality of the model, which requires specifying the purpose of the model.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:36:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could, I think, replace "taught" with "educated".

...as long as we're interested in educating those bloody lazy skills.  I will now save this example for my next course titled, "Trials & Tribulations With The Out Of Context Pronoun"...which will involve an overview followed by exercises (with guidance as necessary.)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:03:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would say "instructed" not educated.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:05:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, instruction.

"Follow the instructions."

Origin: 1375-1425; late ME < L instructus ptp. of instruere to equip, train, set in order

Do you believe in education?

Origin: 1580-90; < L éducātus brought up, taught

I think it's different, yes, to skill transmission.  It's a wider concept, but perhaps I'd just rather bring them as close as possible--keep education as practical as can be.  (Doing vs. Talking About Doing)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:11:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How can this be controversial? All I'm saying is that Modelling is not something you know, but something you know how to do. Information can be transferred and so knowledge can be taught, but skills can only be learnt (by doing). I don't even have to be able to do something to set up the environment in which you can learn it by doing, but I cannot give you the information I don't know (or point you to the sources I don't know).

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:17:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's also "tutoring".

Origin: 1350-1400; ME < L tūtor protector

I like "training".  It's specific and once you've been trained (the idea is that) you can do whatever it was you've been trained in.

Origin: 1350-1400; (v.) late ME traynyn to pull or drag in the rear < MF trainer, OF tra(h)iner < VL *tragīnāre, deriv. of *tragīna something dragged or drawn (cf. ML tragīna carriage), deriv. of *tragere to pull, for L trahere; (n.) ME train, traine < OF tra(h)in (masc.) series of people, animals, or things, tra(h)ine (fem.) something dragged behind, both deriv. of tra(h)iner

Along with ye!  Goddamn it, move!

A couple of musician friends prefer "coaching"

Origin: 1550-60; 1840-50 for sense "tutor"; earlier coche(e) < MF coche < G Kotsche, Kutsche < Hungarian kocsi, short for kocsi szekér cart of Kocs, town on the main road between Vienna and Budapest; senses referring to tutoring, from the conception of the tutor as one who carries the student through examinations

Which, yes, makes sense as that is a specific part of their role.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wel, cough.  I wandered off the subject.  Ooops.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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