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But the telegraphic standardisation of mainland europe continued during this time. Telegraphs are connected to railroads but more important is that both systems depend heavily on standardisation for cross-border purposes. If railroads were the main reason for standardisation of time, then this could simply have been settled at some railroad conference somewhere in Europe.

We lack solid data here.

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by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 10:23:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To say anything about that, first I would have to know when France adopted CET.

By the way, I am calling Migeru out of the woodworks. Could it be that Spain only adopted CET when joining the EU? I know it was so with Portugal, which moved back since to Western European (British) Time when everyone felt awful in the morning.

If we are here, can you (A swedish kind of death) find me anything about the Swedish adoption of a timezone? My only reference was a sentence in a railway history book.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, we've had the mainland at CET and "one hour less in the Canaries" (i.e., GMT) for as long as I remember.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Should never forget: Wikipedia is your friend. It says France (and BeNeLux as well) adopted CET only in 1940 (Nazi occupation!) and returned to it after a brief post-occupation break, while Spain only in 1946.

They say Sweden adopted CET only in 1900 -- so maybe in 1888, they adopted something else, like GMT+0?

The article writes 1884 for all ex-Yugoslav countries, which I am 100% certain is erroneous.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:51:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not sure the occupied and free zones in France during WWII had the same time.
by balbuz on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and after some more browsing on what was replaced in 1940, I find both the Netherlands and France sticked to non-standard timezones even after 1884 (Amsterdam resp. Paris Mean Time).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the best books on France under German occupation is Philippe Burrin's La France a l'heure allemande where the time zone shift is used as an explicit metaphor.
by MarekNYC on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 05:02:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Possible answer for balbuz therein:

Vichy France's adaptation to a German-imposed summer timetable (Daylight Savings Time) offers Philippe Burrin an apt metaphor for French life under German occupation.

Maybe the reviewer wasn't aware of the original timezone difference, with this emphasis on summer time?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 05:08:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's complicated and I can't get it all straight. France adopted summer time during WWI (1916), and maintained it afterwards, so I think the reviewer is mistaken. Unfortunately I haven't read Burrin's work (tipped by Marek). But I think the occupied zone (between summer 1940 and November 1942) was on "l'heure allemande".

In 1945 France chose GMT + 1 as its time, winter and summer. In 1975, Giscard d'Estaing brought summer time back in response to the first oil shock. Since then France has been on GMT + 1 in winter, GMT + 2 in summer.

What changes have there been to German time over that period? (C20?) Didn't West Germany also bring back summer time in the late '70s?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 04:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Summer time was first introduced by the Central Powers. Checking the German Wiki and this ultimate source I just found, it was six weeks before France, but it was short-lived, and resurrected during the next fuel shortage: the next world war... and then lasted till 1949. In 1947, there was even a "High Summer Time", two hours ahead!... Reintroduction in 1980 was EC-inspired. The war-time German Summer Times differed each year, but generally April to September/beginning of October, post-oil-shock it was end of March to end of September, then with the 1996 EU standardisation the end was moved one month later (I remember this, the same change affected Hungary).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 04:51:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From that source and a few cross-references, it appears:

  • France had GMT from 1911, Spain from 1901.
  • Unless one and two half lines were deleted, both German-controlled and Vichy France applied both CET and CEST, with the sole difference of the occupied zone remaining in summer time during the 1940/1 and 1941/2 winters!
  • Norway switched to CET in 1895, Sweden was at GMT+1h10m and got CET in 1900.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 05:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See my response to balbuz below.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 at 08:19:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would assume that in 1888 Sweden adopted "Stockholm time" for the railroads. Considering Sweden was not connected with railroad to any other nations then Norway (and Norway was in a union with Sweden) and Finland until they built the bridge to Denmark the other year there is no apparent reason why in 1888 they would choose a GMT-system time.

That is unless Finland (in union with Russia) had the GMT-system. And that delightful wikipedia-article linked to one with Eastern European Time (EET) which informed me that Finland adopted it in 1921 (independence). However I can not find what system Finland used previous to independence. Thinking about it, Sweden only had one rail-connection to Finland anyway so it was not that hard to set clocks.

In the long run, the strong business and cultural connections with Germany probably made adopting German time sensible.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 06:36:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Considering Sweden was not connected with railroad to any other nations then Norway ... there is no apparent reason why in 1888 they would choose a GMT-system time.

Well, that was true for the USA, too, what's more, the Central European network wasn't connected to the British network until the Eurotunnel -- but was connected to the French and Dutch when they still had non-GMT-plus-whole-hour times -- yet still adopted it. And the very first national time, that of New Zealand from 2 November 1868, was GMT+11h30m.

But, I googled around a bit more, and found this:

On January 1, 1879 a standard time zone was introduced for the entire of Sweden. Swedish standard time was set accordingly to the meridian half way between Stockholm on the east coast and Göteborg on the west coast.

Göteborg is 11°58', Stockholm 18°04', that would be rather neatly 15°01', within 4 seconds off CET. So either my three-decades-old West German railway history book erred in the date, or a few seconds difference was eliminated in 1888, or my book still erred and Wiki is right, e.g. the few seconds difference would have been eliminated in 1900...

Now it really bugs me, did Sweden pre-empt even the US or did it conform with GMT+1 only after Central Europe... Could you Google the dates and the subject in Swedish?

I also found that Italian railways began to introduce a national time (Rome Time) from 12 December 1866, but it wasn't official (for example Venice public clocks switched only in 1880); and they joined MEZ/CET on 10 August 1893.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 12:42:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]


"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A quick research :

Summer time existed in France from 1916 to 1946.

The decision to advance the legal time in France to GMT+1 was taken in 1945, I don't know why. It has remained so ever since.

When summer time was reintroduced in 1976, France went under a "double summer time", 2 hours ahead of solar time, with associated difficulties. Imagine those poor Bretons (from Brittany).

Now, France alone cannot suppress summer time. The solution would be of course to go back to UTC - Western European Time, while keeping summer time like everyone else. The problem is the same for Spain, Belgium, etc.

I think a review of the system is due in 2007 - let's hope common sense prevails.

by balbuz on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After more gloogling:

Daylight Savings Time (heure d'été, sommerzeit) was widely used in WWII (even by the US, where it was called War Time). Britain set up (1940) GMT + 1 all year round, then (from 1941 to 1945) added an extra hour in summer, so GMT + 2. (In other words, the UK was on CET, CEST). See this page in French for a full table of annual UK changes. (UTC = GMT).

The same link gives a table for France. For the WWII years, Vichy zone times are given. They were the same as the UK and Germany, ie GMT + 1, GMT + 2. (= CET, CEST).

However, in all German-occupied territories from 1940 to 1942, GMT + 2 was applied all year round. So inhabitants of the French occupied zone (and no doubt Belgian and Dutch too?) jumped from their normal winter time (GMT) to GMT + 2. Paris à l'heure allemande wasn't metaphorical in the first instance.

There was some confusion after the war. Wikipedia says this:

In 1945, Berlin and the Soviet Occupation Zone even observed Central European Midsummer Time (Mitteleuropäische Hochsommerzeit, MEHSZ; UTC+3); in 1947, whole Germany switched to midsummer time from 11 May to 29 June.

Hochsommerzeit = the high summer time mentioned by DoDo above. The point for the French decision was that Berlin time in 1945 was going even further away from GMT. France at that point was still fighting for its independent existence and was extremely prickly about administrative symbols. So the choice was made (just when the UK was moving back towards GMT) to take a middle path, ie GMT + 1 (= CET) all year round. Neither London nor Berlin...

1945
    Abandon de l'heure d'été
pour rompre avec "l'heure de Berlin" imposée pendant l'Occupation. Le décret du 14 août 1945 fixe l'heure légale à GMT + 1 heure, solution de compromis entre l'heure allemande (GMT + 2 heures) et l'heure de Greenwich.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 at 08:15:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What a mess it must have been! Now the mystery that remains is why Spain decided to follow France the next year.

from 1940 to 1942, GMT + 2 was applied all year round. So inhabitants of the French occupied zone (and no doubt Belgian and Dutch too?)

It can be checked on that German-language page I linked. Indeed I see the same practice was followed in Germany, Italy and (after some delay) Hungary and all territories they occupied this side of the Soviet Union.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 at 12:38:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mystery solved. Thanks to afew and Dodo.
by balbuz on Sat Feb 3rd, 2007 at 01:38:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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