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I quite agree these are very general points. There is more detail (though perhaps not enough) in the pdf I link to in the diary. It was just too much to translate...

I'll take exception to one of your comments, though:

small scale organic farming? If so that means much higher prices and much more land taken away from nature.

This is a talking-point regularly circulated by the pro-industrial/productivist lobby. Don't you wonder why it is you don't hear it when the corn (maize) ethanol lobby proposes increasing acreage of corn? Then we hear that in fact there's heaps of land lying fallow that could be used... Organic farming is capable of higher yields and of lower unit costs the wider-spread and better-organised it is (I suggest to Sven above that the lack of a well-organised commercial network in a sizeable market is one of the reasons that hamstrings organic farming and keeps costs higher; secondly, as we have seen with petro-farming over the decades, the more the production chain is organized and given technical support, the greater the technical capacity of the farmers and the yields they obtain. That can be just as true of organic farming). Finally, no, as I explain to Sven, Hulot is not only speaking of organic farming. Just a switch from subsidising industrial farming to subsidising higher-quality, local, labour-intensive farming.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jan 3rd, 2007 at 03:36:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes!  And see my comment above (maybe not the wild dream part ;)

Give that man an organic cow!



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 3rd, 2007 at 03:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(but not too many...methane and all that...;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 3rd, 2007 at 03:45:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair enough then on the yield and cost issue. I'm still not too thrilled with 'labour intensive farming'. I see family farming as a pretty miserable job - hard physical labour, zero flexibility - those cows need to be milked, so forget about sick leave or vacations. Call it a bias from observing a small family farm in action. If you can use technology to reduce the number of people doing it who can then do forty hour desk jobs in some cubicle, go home, enjoy their regular schedule and vacations and in general have a life apart from their job, I'm all for it.
by MarekNYC on Wed Jan 3rd, 2007 at 03:57:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A great many people (me included) would rather milk cows than sit all day in a cubicle. Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya choice...

Farming can also provide jobs for lower-skilled workers who are now no longer needed in such great numbers by industry. And rather a countryside inhabited by people and their families than a monoculture desert run by agri-managers...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jan 3rd, 2007 at 04:08:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aah, the countryside - nice place to visit, but as the saying goes...  Still, I guess the small farmers do provide esthetically pleasing local color for relaxing urban dwellers
by MarekNYC on Wed Jan 3rd, 2007 at 04:40:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Green" tourism is an economic asset of some importance...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 4th, 2007 at 02:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about small scale but larger than family size collective farming, with appropriate technological aids? The kind of setup where sick leave and vacations would be available? In an LLP wrapper, of course!
Family farms and industrial agri-business are not the only possiblities in agriculture, I think. I hear some people actually like living in the countryside. And how some of them are a bit annoyed sometimes when 'them city types' view them as somehow less privileged for having to endure the burden of rural life. I don't particularly want to think that were we all to achieve some kind of 'enlightenment', everyone would like to: "do forty hour desk jobs in some cubicle, go home, enjoy their regular schedule and vacations and in general have a life apart from their job".
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Jan 3rd, 2007 at 06:54:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How about small scale but larger than family size collective farming, with appropriate technological aids? The kind of setup where sick leave and vacations would be available?

Fine if done voluntarily. Encourage it through laws and regulations making it easier. But that's easier said than done since farmers tend to have a rather strong attachment to owning their own land, if possible.

btw, I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say people should like their cubicle jobs, just that a regular, limited work schedule which allows time for a proper life outside of work beats the alternative. There's more to life than work, and I don't think that it's good to encourage greater numbers of people to have jobs that completely dominate their lives.  Sure some people like heavy physical labour - whether on a farm or on some construction project or wherever, but most don't and family farming is especially problematic because of its all consuming nature.

As for city bias - I plead guilty. I like crowds and having everything I could possibly want right near me. No car needed or desired.  Trees on the streets and parks are also good, but I feel better surrounded by concrete, asphalt, and brick than I do surrounded by nature.

by MarekNYC on Wed Jan 3rd, 2007 at 08:05:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, I didn't respond to Marek's point about sick leave and vacations. I don't know about the US (where family farms all but don't exist any more), but in Europe farmers can get both. It's not as good a cover as for salaried workers, but the same can be said of all self-employed people in other trades and professions. One of the things a redirection of CAP subsidies would have to address would be how to improve this aspect of farming.

But I quite agree, someone, that it's not just a question of "family farms" that conjure up the image of grinding hard work and lack of freedom Marek brings up. There could certainly be other forms of organisation.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 4th, 2007 at 02:44:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
in Europe farmers can get both

<cough> In Western Europe, afaik. <re-cough> ;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 4th, 2007 at 12:29:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In an LLP wrapper, of course!

;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Jan 4th, 2007 at 04:38:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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