Display:

it decidedly true that the extreme problem of climate change and energy will not be addressed by a few windmills and solar cells.  

Not "a few", "a lot"!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Peak windmills and peak solar panels?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:23:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My Peak Silicon warning is now over 1.5 years old... Last time I looked, still actual. Jerome had a story on it not that long ago.
by Nomad on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:57:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Russ Meyer is turning over in his grave.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant
by redstar on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:28:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to be fair it's a refining capacity issue in the short term and an EROEI issue in the long term as we will never run out of the raw materials.

Ammonia products (the nitrogen component of fertilizer) are in a samilar boat. You can create them from air and water if you have to, the limiting factor is energy availability to run the process.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 05:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But refinement capacity and the "Energy returned on energy invested" are two aspects similar to Peak Oil.

Hypothetically, your ammonia example would even work for oil - given the proper energy required (aka Chinese fingertrap) and know-how. The raw materials are there - just like silicon. The one difference I see is that the raw materials for oil (hydrocarbons) are vastly smaller than those for silicon.

by Nomad on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The current Si refining capacity crunch has nothing to do with peak oil or any physical resource limit. It's a simple supply and demand problem for the solar industry which is competing with the extremely volatile semiconductor industry for their basic input material.

Refiners are now responding to explosive year over year growth in solar demand, with predictable lag due to the time it takes to get factories up and running along with hedging risk by waiting to see if solar really was going to take off. As most of these manufacturers are used to dealing with the extremely volatile semiconductor industry (where demand can turn off overnight) some initial reluctance to quickly expand is understandable.

As solar matures the following will probably happen.  Polycrystalline solar production will vary somewhat with the Si demand of the semiconductor industry. Thin film solar tech (which uses very little if any silicon per watt compared to standard photovoltaic tech) will grow to a substantial portion of the market and will be used to produce the remainder of what the polycrystalline market cannot provide, essentially creating an independent supply chain for the solar industry that decouples them from the nasty volatility of the semiconductor industry. In the long run the approximate reverse will be true - some sort of thin film tech will be the primary product, and polycrystalline solar production will be limited to "soaking up" all the spare Si capacity that the semiconductor industry is not using, particularly in times of low demand. Any solar manufacturer that is large enough will produce both for that reason.

The thin film tech coming along is, I think, an attempt to address EROEI even if it isn't intentional or thought of within that framework. Polycrystalline Si that is good enough to make CPUs for your computer is overkill for solar cells and thus there is potential room for EROEI improvement.

Ammonia production, on the other hand (which uses natural gas as a feedstock), is already being directly impacted by peaking natural gas production in North America. Various plants in the southern US have been shut down during periods of high natural gas prices over the past several years.

I only argue this narrow point because the way you present the concept it can be used as a bludgeon by doomers.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 08:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was way out of my league on this subject.

A thoroughly insightful and informative post. Thank you.

by Nomad on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 10:01:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just going to remark that I didn't know afew had gotten into the windmill business too.

...you can throw the pie in my face now.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 11:25:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've always been something of a Don Quixote.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it decidedly true that the extreme problem of climate change and energy will not be addressed by a few windmills and solar cells.

Alternative energy under capitalism won't address climate change: consider Jevons' Paradox, under which technological innovation just eggs the system on.

Not consuming fossil fuels, though, might do something...

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:58:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Empirical support for Jevons' Paradox is disputed, although I don't know much more than what I link here.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 10:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series