EU accountability | 88 comments (88 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Shifting of power in member countries (4.00 / 2)

What's needed is a campaign of gentle persuasion to rehabilitate the image of the EU within the member countries, and create the trust required to make the transition to closer federalism.

Why should federalism be a goal?

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 10:26:41 AM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 1)

Explicit federalism - not necessarily. But someone has to reintroduce accountability into European politics, and - ironically - for all its faults, the EU is often more accountable than national governments are.

More federalism is only bad if you assume that it undermines democracy. My point is that done properly it should have the opposite effect.

National governments are hardly democratic anyway, so - pursued properly - tighter federalisation could create democratic pressure for accountability from both above and below.

The catch is the 'done properly.' So far we've had a rambling not-the-constitution soap opera which no one understands and even fewer people care about. This is exactly the wrong approach to be taking, because it will give the nationalist right more influence, not less.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 12:31:37 PM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 1)

ThatBritGuy:

But someone has to reintroduce accountability into European politics,

Was European politics ever accountable?

ThatBritGuy:

for all its faults, the EU is often more accountable than national governments are

I would again argue that accountability is greater in the Nordic countries than it is in the EU.

ThatBritGuy:

National governments are hardly democratic anyway

Would it not be easier to change national governments into more democratic ones than to create a federal Europe to sort out national shortcomings?

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 07:51:49 PM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (4.00 / 3)

Solveig:

Would it not be easier to change national governments into more democratic ones than to create a federal Europe to sort out national shortcomings?

It might be easier to run the other way. National governments are already in place,with a legacy of tradition and method that does not exist at so large a level in the newer structures of Europe. and so It might be easier to solve the problems at that level.

I'm not saying it is necessarily true, but it might work that way.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 07:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shifting of power in member countries (4.00 / 5)

It might be easier to run the other way. National governments are already in place,with a legacy of tradition and method that does not exist at so large a level in the newer structures of Europe. and so It might be easier to solve the problems at that level.

I doubt that. The Union already has plenty enough dysfunctional traditions that have acquired "legitimacy" through simple longevity (farming subsidies come to mind) to render me optimistic on that score.

OTOH, I am of the belief that modern infrastructure means that power can go to the Union, or power can go to the Kremlin, but there's no way Scandinavia is going to survive as an independent political unit - much less four - so since the Union is there to stay, we might as well concentrate on that level, since transparency and accountability at that level will go a long way towards increasing those same things at the state level, and lacking those qualities at the Union level will go a long way towards undoing any progress made at the state level.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 08:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 0)

JakeS:

I doubt that. The Union already has plenty enough dysfunctional traditions that have acquired "legitimacy" through simple longevity (farming subsidies come to mind) to render me optimistic on that score.

Then how can a (EU)constitution change that?

JakeS:

but there's no way Scandinavia is going to survive as an independent political unit

Scandinavia is Sweden, Denmark and Norway. I was talking about the Nordic countries which includes Finland and Iceland.
I do not think the Scandinavian, or the Nordic countries, for that matter, have ever seen themselves as a political unit. They work together in the Nordic Council, but that is not a 'Power Block'. It is the continuation of a long tradition of mutuality and co-operation.

JakeS:

since the Union is there to stay, we might as well concentrate on that level, since transparency and accountability at that level will go a long way towards increasing those same things at the state level

As shown in posts in the ET Salon thread today, the transparency and accountability in Sweden and Denmark is greater than in the EU.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 at 08:41:09 AM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 0)

The Scandinavist movement in the 19th century saw the Nordic countries as a natural political unit. The goal was to unit the nordic crowns (Denmark, Norway, Sweden) under the house of Bernadotte (by then already kings of Sweden and Norway) and then liberate Finland (from Russia, presumably to be reunited with Sweden).

If Sweden-Norway had come to Denmarks aid in the danish-german war of 1866 and IF (not bloody likely) it had given a Nordic victory the dream of a Scandinavia might have come true. And then we would all be speaking Scandinavian today. But as that did not happen instead the scandinavists were marginalised and eventually Norway opted for independence.

There was also attempts just after WWII to create a Scandinavian military defense alliance. Also came to nothing.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 at 09:18:54 AM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 0)

There was an attempt at creating a Nordic EEC-like union in the late 1960s, but it ultimately fizzled as Finland opted out due its relationship with the Soviet Union.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 at 09:38:40 AM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 1)

It must have been a feeble attempt...I don't remember it...but then I was very busy with other things at the time...

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Fri Oct 12th, 2007 at 11:30:22 AM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 0)

Many historical 'if's there...I vaguely remember from history lessons.

But since WWII no attempt to create a 'power block'...
cross border co-operation, on the other hand, has been 'nurtured'.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 at 09:54:15 AM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 1)

But since WWII no attempt to create a 'power block'...

More the pity. Such a unit would possess significant assets in population, oil, (gas,) steel and merchant marine. This would be a case in which the whole could be much greater than the sum of its parts.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 12th, 2007 at 11:09:41 AM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 1)

True. But personally, I do not believe in 'power blocks'. They easily get corrupted over time.
Better to co-operate on single issues, as good neighbours IMHO.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Fri Oct 12th, 2007 at 11:40:50 AM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (4.00 / 2)

The power blocs exist whether we want them to or not. We can be part of one and try to direct how it uses its power, or we can opt for a 'clean hands' policy - which will unfortunately leave us largely as spectators on the geopolitical scene. Given how the current power blocs are doing, I honestly think we'd have a hard time doing any worse.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 12th, 2007 at 12:05:15 PM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 1)

There is always a third way - if we care to seek for it. Joining an existing 'power block' is not the solution IMHO.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Fri Oct 12th, 2007 at 01:30:35 PM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (4.00 / 2)

Wasn't talking about joining an existing power bloc. Was talking about creating a new one.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 12th, 2007 at 04:46:13 PM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 1)

Ah...that's interesting...

What do you suggest?

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Fri Oct 12th, 2007 at 06:24:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shifting of power in member countries (4.00 / 4)

If I recall my statistics correctly (but I may not, it's been a while since I checked), a unified Nordic (DK, SWE, NOR, FIN) region will control - in a more or less direct way - about a third of the global merchant marine by tonnage (biased towards heavy hulls, which means that it translates to more than a third of the global long-haul commerce capacity), the greatest or second-greatest refinery capacity outside OPEC, greatest or second-greatest mapped-out oil and gas reserves of any 'stable' region (a.k.a. outside Russia and OPEC), a very reasonable infrastructure, a respectable 25 million people (about as many as the Low Countries combined), and the principal access route to the Baltic.

Furthermore, the member countries would have sufficiently similar policies and tradition of government in most areas of importance that it should be possible to integrate swiftly.

All things considered, handled properly a Nordic union would have a considerable clout within the EU, both by virtue of being the seventh-biggest member by population (below Germany, France, UK, Italy, Spain and Poland) and by virtue of having a disproportional economic strength. Of course, using that clout in a fashion that both furthers a transparent and democratic development of the Union and avoids pissing the other members off too badly will be quite a challenge. But the potential is definitely there.

The details would probably be a nightmare to hash out to everyone's satisfaction, but let's leave that for another post, as we seem to be veering just a tiny bit off topic here...

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Oct 13th, 2007 at 03:53:27 PM EST
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Re: Shifting of power in member countries (none / 1)

JakeS: