Display:
MillMan:
It's a matter of discipline, learning, and self-awareness that "the west" has only consciously engaged in for about a century, and the Arab world has hardly touched it for centuries.

I'm not sure 'the west' has really engaged in it at all.

We don't handle anarchy any better than anyone else does. Our usual response is to try to package it and sell it, or repress it. One drains the juice out of it - like porn, which is almost exactly but not quite completely unlike real sexuality. The other easily becomes bizarre, as with the proverbial wardrobe malfunction incident, and any number of Republican 'values' senators with exotic sexual histories.

People are still very confused about sexuality, especially in the media. It's okay for Britney not to wear knickers, and makes for good PR copy. But imagine the outrage if George Clooney flashed his genitals while getting out of a limo.

I'm not sure what that says about feminism, or indeed anything much, except that maybe being explicitly sexual is part of the job description for female singers in a way that it isn't quite for male entertainers.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 08:49:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Media attitudes toward sex are only tangentially related to how members of society act and are allowed to act vs. previous eras. Until the 60's there was little avenue for any sort of frank sexual discussion.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 12:46:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually there were some quite lurid Victorian 'marriage' manuals which discussed sexuality in very open ways. The idea that people only started discussing sex in public in the 60s simply isn't true.

What happened in the 60s is that the media started discussing sex, starting a revolution (of sorts) which took around twenty years to move from pinched disapproval to orgasms during prime time. And it was only last year that you could go to see a non-porn film with non-simulated sex in it. (Very daring, but a little odd considering how much porn there is around. Maybe people went to see it for the acting.) You still can't expect to put on a theatre production with people having real sex in it. You certainly can't start a religion devoted to sexual expression. (Although god knows some of the Osho people have tried.)

If anything now the media are oversexualised - usually for cynical commercial reasons. And there's still not much chance of a prime-time festival of erotica on mainstream TV - especially not in the US, where there's still confusion about the difference between porn and erotica, and a rabid fundie and authoritarian base which is just plain psychotic about sexuality.

We're really not as open as we think we are. When sex appears on TV, it's hardly ever without mixed messages about transgression and naughtiness and/or a commercial angle.

Media sex is rarely generous in the sense of promoting sexuality as something which can be shared in a relaxed and effortless way. It's either being sold, being used to sell, or framed as something that's being used to shock and titillate because talking about it and showing it is oh-so-very edgy.

In fact we'd rather have a public festival devoted to death than to sex.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 04:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What happened in the 60s is that the media started discussing sex, starting a revolution (of sorts) which took around twenty years to move from pinched disapproval to orgasms during prime time.

I understand it, the big change was "the pill".  The big period of "sexual liberation" can be (I thought) measured from its introduction to the re-appearance of drug-resistant sexually transmitted bugs of varying nastiness--I suppose the AIDS iceburg was the end of that period.  Hey, there's a quote about that.

Hunter S. Thompson - Wikiquote

There are times, however, and this is one of them, when even being right feels wrong. What do you say, for instance, about a generation that has been taught that rain is poison and sex is death? If making love might be fatal and if a cool spring breeze on any summer afternoon can turn a crystal blue lake into a puddle of black poison right in front of your eyes, there is not much left except TV and relentless masturbation. It's a strange world. Some people get rich and others eat shit and die. Who knows? If there is in fact, a heaven and a hell, all we know for sure is that hell will be a viciously overcrowded version of Phoenix -- a clean well lighted place full of sunshine and bromides and fast cars where almost everybody seems vaguely happy, except those who know in their hearts what is missing... And being driven slowly and quietly into the kind of terminal craziness that comes with finally understanding that the one thing you want is not there. Missing. Back-ordered. No tengo. Vaya con dios. Grow up! Small is better. Take what you can get...

(I know it's not quite on topic, but...such great writing!)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 05:15:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not even sure that line from Millman is correct.  But what I do think, and what he may have been alluding to, is that "in the west", however f*!#ed up our attitudes toward sex and sexuality and gender are, we do, mostly, have the ability to talk openly and frankly about the matter and engage freely exploring and figuring out for ourselves what it means or doesn't mean to be a man or a woman, hence the learning and self-awareness bit.

Doesn't mean everyone will do this, or that your family or some church or the media won't judge you.  Or that there are not a lot of sickos out there.  But mostly no one "in the west" can be arrested or blacklisted (let alone killed) for challenging old stereotypes about how men and women should comport themselves.


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 01:05:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
have the ability to talk openly and frankly about the matter and engage freely exploring and figuring out for ourselves what it means or doesn't mean to be a man or a woman,

So long as you fit into a neat consumer category.

This comment isn't aimed at you, but I find it impossible to think about this line of conversation without frowning deeply. There are so many hidden assumptions of doubtful validity lurking here.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 01:15:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please elaborate.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 01:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure I can. I just get the feeling that we're trapped within a framing here and missing some pretty fundamental issues. We're a pretty sex obsessed society, and I'm not sure how normal or healthy that is, for a start.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 02:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've never said "normal" or "healthy," just "open" and "frank."  Which I think is healthier than "closed" and "ashamed."  That's by no means implying perfect health, though.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 02:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to disagree.  Mind you, I am talking about public policy here, not social peer pressure.  And I'm not suggesting it is easy or simple or even common.  But it's also not limited to a neat consumer category.  People of all socio-economic strata, wether they shop at WalMart, the farmer's market, or Tiffany's are talking about sex and sex roles and figuring things out for themselves, and legally, without the mayor getting involved.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 01:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Er, may be different in Ireland.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 02:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, absolutely. Over here you have to be married for ten years before they even explain how sex works. I'm waiting anxiously.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 02:25:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's funny.  Everyone always assumed us Catholic School girls knew more about the subject than our public school counterparts.  Or that's the reputation we had.  Or that was the projection of males who fantasized about girls in school uniforms...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 02:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There may be a fairly significant cultural difference crossing the Atlantic on this one.  I've heard it described like this:  In the USA, you can talk about absolutely anything, sexual or otherwise, and can do it on network TV, but you can't use the words that most vividly describe what you're talking about.  In Britain, you can use all those words as freely as you like, but you can't actually talk about what they describe.

</semi-snarky stereotype>

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 02:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By "do it on network TV" I assume you mean "talk about it on network TV"?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 02:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, absolutely.  You certainly can't actually do it on network TV, or even show the parts of the body with which it is sometimes done.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 02:30:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It sometimes occurs to me that those who would campaign for banning headscarfs in the Muslim world should consider a plan to ban breast coverings in the US.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 at 02:37:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series