In this case the argument can be "suppressing women's rights and sexual freedom is what works for culture x."
Now who's putting words in whose mouth? Come on.
the cultures that suppress women in this manner are as bizarre of an excursion away from what makes happy, healthy people as capitalism is.
Huh? Is capitalism the opposite of "the cultures" you're talking about? I'm not sure I get the point of the reference.
Second, there are many, many, many ways that many cultures, including our own, suppress (or oppress) women. Nobody has a monopoly on it. So it's only the ones who suppress women in a particular manner who're moving us away from total Zen bliss?
What goes on in the US and Europe is by no means perfect, but I have to describe the sexual environment as healthier.
Yes, we are so healthy. So very healthy.
Please.
That's not good enough.
Of course it's not. But a great big hulking chunk of "our" society is even more repressed than that. Trust me, I'm related to some of them. "We" really are not in a position to be throwing any stones, because "our" society isn't really in the business of making happy, healthy, well-adjusted adults either. If we were, we wouldn't have the Republican Party.
"We" really are not in a position to be throwing any stones, because "our" society isn't really in the business of making happy, healthy, well-adjusted adults either
You just threw all the social movements of the 20th century under the bus. Please don't use the "not holy enough" argument.
For me, this sort of statement sums up the friction between cultural relativism and personal rights. Women in Arab countries have fewer freedoms than women in the west. I say that with what I think is a decent idea of what the Arab world does better.
I'm not going add anything more - at this point it would require x-thousand words to add any nuance to this as our opinions differ in a very basic manner.
you are the media you consume.
Women in Arab countries have fewer freedoms than women in the west.
And 99.9 percent of those things have nothing to do with sex or sexuality. It's just as complicated a thing here as anywhere, but on the list of things I'd like to change about the society I live in (and it's a long list) what you're talking about would be way down at the bottom. "Freedom" is a helluva lot more than freedom to wear next to nothing.
"Freedom" is a helluva lot more than freedom to wear next to nothing.
Are you talking to me, or music video producers?
I really, really passionately hate seeing sexuality presented in a cultural context,
I also really, really passionately hate the either-or proposition here.
It's a matter of discipline, learning, and self-awareness that "the west" has only consciously engaged in for about a century, and the Arab world has hardly touched it for centuries.
Here's me:
I think you may not realize how that sounds?
Here's you again:
It sounds politically incorrect. I won't back down from the statement
I gave you the opportunity to clarify, and you did. You made it really, really passionately clear.
the cultures that suppress women in this manner are as bizarre of an excursion away from what makes happy, healthy people as capitalism is. Huh? Is capitalism the opposite of "the cultures" you're talking about? I'm not sure I get the point of the reference.
Not the "opposite." But just as harmful.
What goes on in the US and Europe is by no means perfect, but I have to describe the sexual environment as healthier. Yes, we are so healthy. So very healthy.
We're talking about degrees here. It's possible for one culture to be more humane than another and still inhumane in many ways. We're all far from ideal, but some are further than others.
"We" really are not in a position to be throwing any stones, because "our" society isn't really in the business of making happy, healthy, well-adjusted adults either. If we were, we wouldn't have the Republican Party.
Do you truly feel that way? Because that pretty much rules out anyone defending or advocating for the rights of anyone outside their culture. Whatever that is. Because there are sickos in the US, many of them in power, Americans cannot speak out about the ill treatment of others? Do you believe in universal human rights? Do you believe that equal rights are universal human rights? Do you believe that since no one lives in a society where all human rights are upheld without fail that therefore no one is in a position to comment on the plight of others? Do you think inequality occurs to the same degree everywhere and that we cannot learn from the accomplishments and failures of other cultures? I understand your defensiveness. Look at how I go off on critical press about Russia (how dare we judge them?) But at the end of the day, curbing free speech, women's rights, torture, etc. etc. is wrong - regardless where it happens, and I feel it is a fundamental human right to be able to speak out when you suspect injustice. I think we can debate if there is or is not injustice, but I don't think we can say, "You have no right to speak on the matter." Don't you agree? "Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
What we can't do is act as if our own house is in order, which it's certainly not, or as if we are the model to which all others should aspire, because we're not.
We're talking about degrees here.
No, we're not. He said "the sexual environment is healthier," and I don't think that what I linked to is even remotely healthy. It's disturbing, as is much of the oversexualized environment within which nine-year-olds wear fishnet tights and corsets for Halloween.
And, uh, finally, I don't think I'm being terribly defensive. I have not for a single second said that folks in this part of the world are doing things the "right way" and everybody else needs to listen up and start behaving. But that's essentially what's been said to me. If you want defensive, I can hook you up, because there is a much stronger reaction to that kind of attitude than the one I've taken, and it would be not-uncalled-for at this point.
Woah! I think there is a common position here:
"X society is not perfect and we already have information that could make it better."
But then we get, "So country Y could learn from country X"
Or is it "Country X could learn from country Y"?
Or is it "They could both learn from each other"?
Or is there even, maybe, a mythical country that at least one of the people arguing is also implying exits, the one the other two are supposed to become--in the ideal world; then one of the arguers says, "The place that I think [insert their country of choice here] is closer to, in some respects--"
"But further from in other respects--" says the other arguer.
My preferred option in these kinds of arguments would be for each side to admit their own weaknesses and applaud the strengths of the other side.
I know that becomes impossible because of politics, but a rule could be applied: "You are not allowed to say anything good about your preferred country, only bad things."
(Heh! I can imagine it. "In our country, we're just too nice! We take criticism too well! We're just too damned wonderful, it pisses everyone off!" Well, okay, not that. More likely: "We have been slacking in introducing genuine organic healthy meals free to all children under the age of sixteen; they have made a step forward by no longer torturing four year olds--they have now raised the lower limit to five")
(I imagine the "religious cartoons" argument had a similar trajectory--it'd be interesting (for me) and maybe useful to go one step "meta" and deconstruct the arguments to see what's underneath--I know, I know, I've wandered into an argument....I'll go to the bar. Anyone want a drink?)
(Saw a woman in her fifties in the pub last night. She'd asked, probably, for "a bottle of sparkling water." This is a drinkers' pub, so they had to search in the basement, but they found a bottle--not chilled, of course. The barman handed it to her. She held it up, turned it, pulled a face like it was mouldy, then said, "Okay, well, I suppose it's water." So yeah! Or I can recommend the...er...it's a pub....hmmmm....maybe--okay I'll risk the idea of "a cup of tea"--I have tea bags! All we need is a kettle and some cups!)
</strange interlude> Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
