I.e., that European nations should abdicate to the US their individual and collective responsibility to formulate a foreign and security policy. We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
But then you'd have to find some way of dealing with the fact that some EU members bail on the Union the moment the American government snaps its fingers. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
But then you'd have to find some way of dealing with the fact that some EU members bail on the Union the moment the American government snaps its fingers.
We know already pretty much who they are. Maybe they'd like to leave the union.
<snark> A few of them, I'm sure, would very much like to be back in Moscow's orbit. </snark> Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant
You are of course pulling our collective leg, neh?
you are the media you consume.
I suspect, as it gets no coverage here (and as these policies are set up behind closed doors), most Americans haven't got a clue about any of it. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
I suspect most Europeans couldn't put together the history of US interventions in Europe since WWII. My picture of it is fragmentary, for that matter. But it's not all that pretty.
Someone - DoDo springs to mind for some reason - should write a diary...
Large-scale CIA interference in Italian politics has been public knowledge since the congressional Pike Report was leaked in 1976, citing a figure of over $65 million to approved political parties and affiliates from 1948 through the early 1970s. In 1976, the Aldo Moro government fell in Italy after revelations that the CIA had spent $6 million to support anti-Communist candidates. At the time, the European Communist parties were moving towards independence of action with pluralistic and democratic tendencies (Eurocommunism), a development that pleased neither Washington nor Moscow, Raymond Garthoff observes, neither of which may "have wanted to see an independent pan-Europe based on local nationalism arise between them." For such reasons, both superpowers opposed the legalization of the Communist Party of Spain and the rising influence of the Communist Party in Italy, and both preferred center-right governments in France. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger described the "major problem" in the Western alliance as "the domestic evolution in many European countries," which might make Western communist parties more attractive to the public, nurturing moves towards independence and threatening the NATO alliance. "The United States gave a higher priority to the defensive purpose of protecting the Western alliance and American influence in it than to offensive interests in weakening Soviet influence in the East" in those years, Garthoff concludes in his comprehensive study of the period; the phrase "defensive purpose of protecting the Western alliance" refers to the defense of existing privilege from an internal challenge. This was the context for renewed CIA interference with Italian elections, and possibly a good deal more In July 1990, President Cossiga of Italy called for an investigation of charges aired over state television that the CIA had paid Licio Gelli to foment terrorist activities in Italy in the late 1960s and 1970s. Gelli was grandmaster of the secret Propaganda Due (P2) Masonic lodge and had long been suspected of a leading role in terrorism and other criminal activities. In those years, according to a 1984 report of the Italian Parliament, P2 and other neofascist groups, working closely with elements of the Italian military and secret services, were preparing a virtual coup to impose an ultra-right regime and to block the rising forces of the left. One aspect of these plans was a "strategy of tension" involving major terrorist actions in Europe. The new charges were made by Richard Brenneke, who claims to have served as a CIA contract officer, and who alleged that the CIA-P2 connections extended over more than 20 years and involved a $10 million payoff. Close links between Washington and the Italian ultra-right can be traced to the strong support for Mussolini's fascist takeover in 1922
In July 1990, President Cossiga of Italy called for an investigation of charges aired over state television that the CIA had paid Licio Gelli to foment terrorist activities in Italy in the late 1960s and 1970s. Gelli was grandmaster of the secret Propaganda Due (P2) Masonic lodge and had long been suspected of a leading role in terrorism and other criminal activities. In those years, according to a 1984 report of the Italian Parliament, P2 and other neofascist groups, working closely with elements of the Italian military and secret services, were preparing a virtual coup to impose an ultra-right regime and to block the rising forces of the left. One aspect of these plans was a "strategy of tension" involving major terrorist actions in Europe. The new charges were made by Richard Brenneke, who claims to have served as a CIA contract officer, and who alleged that the CIA-P2 connections extended over more than 20 years and involved a $10 million payoff. Close links between Washington and the Italian ultra-right can be traced to the strong support for Mussolini's fascist takeover in 1922
Far worse was the meddling by non-governmental elements (WACL, OAS), sects (P2, masons, mafia), recycled fascists (Valerio Borghese, Salvatore Giuliano, De Lorenzo), or plain terrorist organizations (BR, NAR). It will take several decades until the dust settles to draw any historical conclusions on the extant of CIA involvement in Italian affairs. They may have had a stabilizing effect by discouraging or blocking the adventurism of their natural allies (all of the above).
I wouldn't know what little history I do except for reading and being tutored by my father.
The WWII generation knows its stuff. And the Boomers are pretty sharp. But, from Gen-X on, knowledge of history -- European, America, any kind -- seems to plummet, in my experience. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
I can't say I know my history well, but I was raised to be aware of the world outside the borders of my country, or town for that matter. My mother lived in Italy for a bit, and that had an impact on my upbringing. I was also really lucky to have this amazing 6th grade teacher -in a small town of 2,000- who made us learn all of the countries, their capitals, and would go on these diatribes about how there is the whole world out there who think Americans are idiots and we should stop acting like idiots and proving them right. People hated him. His wife was ... Polish, I think, and they'd lived in Germany or something. He made me take German lessons after class, for some reason.
Oh, perhaps this is the reason:
Foreign languages are rarely required in American schools, and if they are, it is usually long after the ideal time to acquire a second language. Then, I just happened to have an English teacher in High School whose parents were Lithuanian immigrants, and she taught a small group of us Russian. I think it's extremely rare to have Russian taught in American High Schools. And sadly, just about all of my peers studying Russian in college had studied it in high school. Creates a really small pool of people in America who can even make a half-assed attempt at speaking Russian. And given that you can't really understand another culture until you can unsderstand the language, it's really detrimental that most 3rd generation Americans don't bother knowing a second language. Pretty basic stuff...
The WWII generation were rather forced to travel the world, or forced to understand their loved ones' world travels. It was a World War. Boomers? Why did they care? British invasion? Cold War? Simultaneous student movements here and abroad? All the cool kids were going to Europe to smoke hash or something? Don't know.
My generation has no need to leave the country, not much opportunity to do so, no motivation to learn a sexy foreign language, no World War or Cold War to force us to see ourselves in some larger context. Well, in the Middle East, but not Europe. It's lack of education, yes, but also lack of impetus to educate ourselves. Why would we need to care about Europe? How would not caring about Europe affect our lives? I think the prevailing sentiment is that Europe is that place our grandparents are from, and where they still produce quality things we love like wine and cheese. Caring about politics there is like caring about politics in a neighboring town. I like going apple-picking there, but don't care who their mayor is. "Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
We all know the French for cheese, wine and the Eiffel Tower; the Germans for their cars and engineering in general; the Italians for what we think is their food; the Dutch for their legalized dope; the Brits -- who are all, of course, from London -- for Big Ben; and the Irish for alcohol and alcohol-related issues. I think that sums up my generation's basic understanding of Europe.
Forget the other countries. If you say Spain, we think Mexico. the Swiss make knives, and they have bank accounts. ("Something about bank accounts....") And Belgium has waffles and chocolate.
Most of my family that I'm aware of came to the states centuries ago, so we don't have any deep emotional ties to Europe aside from being a family of people with some interest in history and politics. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
I could almost be an American Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
(You made me--yes!--imagine an evil tribe growing out of america, enslaving everyone in some terrible violent misery of endless them, and their flag would be red, a different shade to the russians of course, a bit more lipstick red in there, hidden away, so...okay...none of that dark purple--oh and, shit, the chinese have a red flag too--the battle of the reds!)
Cough cough! Very very very enjoyable, thanks ceebs and Drew! Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
Backbeat the word was on the street That the fire in your heart is out I'm sure you've heard it all before But you never really had a doubt I don't believe that anybody feels The way I do about you now
And all the roads we have to walk along are winding And all the lights that lead us there are blinding There are many things that I would Like to say to you I don't know how
Because maybe You're gonna be the one who saves me ? And after all You're my wonderwall
Today was gonna be the day? But they'll never throw it back to you By now you should've somehow Realized what you're not to do I don't believe that anybody Feels the way I do About you now
And all the roads that lead to you were winding And all the lights that light the way are blinding There are many things that I would like to say to you I don't know how
I said maybe You're gonna be the one who saves me ? And after all You're my wonderwall
I said maybe You're gonna be the one who saves me ? And after an You're my wonderwall
Said maybe You're gonna be the one that saves me You're gonna be the one that saves me You're gonna be the one that saves me
Okay...okay.
You have to watch the intro to this and then the song is at -3:35
%+:;;'7}) Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
In fact, why don't you Godless commies play it like your Yankee cousins? Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
And of course we need breaks. Do you know how difficult it is to run after eating half a dozen Big Macs every day for twenty years? Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
You know, I think we may be the only country in history to have ever launched a revolution after having our taxes cut. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
It's not like we can/want to do it ourselves.
Remember how well we handled the Balkan conflicts until the Americans bailed us out?
European countries just don't seem to care about security (except France and the occasional sidekick venturing into Africa).
Well, and the Brits who do what the Americans tell them too.
And all the frontline states and former communist occupied states who desperately try to make the Americans happy so they'll be protected from Russia.
Anyone starting to see the problem with European security policy and institutions, and why the transtalantic link is vital? Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Is it a case of: who is happy to play me for a schmuck, take what I'm schmuck enough to give them, and just not care if I get upset?
As I've understood things so far, our dangers are from within (e.g. growing alienated "under" classes; e.g. rich elites taking too much and leaving too many without necessities--they certainly), and also from without: we are "rich"; and as America implodes or draws back, sorts out its problems, Europe will be more comfortable, maybe--I don't know, but while we fund the "big power" battles, however we fund them, we'll get targeted as "supporters of big power battles"....
So....do we have to support one them? Should it be called "Europe", knowing what we do about the lack of basic morals involved at the high end of finance (I think the exceptions, being so exceptional...do they prove the rule?)...heh...
I would like to see a common european defence policy, but look at our "leaders"--I have to suffer Gordon Brown! I'm watching America get its act together on renewables, and in five years there will be those countries at the forefront of the green revolution, and a brit politician will announce that, "The government has come to an agreement with Al-Knussen-Pen-Hi-Prom. They will set up factories here. Of course, we've said they won't have to pay any taxes."
The enemy! Who or what is it or are they? Ho heh.....<cough>....
Er....
hmmmmm....
(I'm listening to that piece below)
Jean Sibelius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Like many of his contemporaries, Sibelius was initially enamored with the music of Wagner. A performance of Parsifal at the Bayreuth Festival had a strong effect on him, inspiring him to write to his wife shortly thereafter, "Nothing in the world has made such an impression on me, it moves the very strings of my heart." He studied the scores of Wagner's operas Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, and Die Walküre intently. With this music in mind, Sibelius began work on an opera of his own, entitled Veneen luominen (The Building of the Boat). However, his appreciation for Wagner waned and Sibelius ultimately rejected Wagner's Leitmotif compositional technique, considering it to be too deliberate and calculated. Departing from opera, he later used the musical material from the incomplete Veneen luominen in his Lemminkäinen Suite (1893). More lasting influences included Ferruccio Busoni, Anton Bruckner and Tchaikovsky. Hints of Tchaikovsky's music are particularly evident in works such as Sibelius' First Symphony (1899) and his Violin Concerto (1905). Similarities to Bruckner are most strongly felt in the 'unmixed' timbral palette and sombre brass chorales of Sibelius' orchestration, as well as in the latter composer's fondness for pedal points and in the underlying slow pace of his music. Sibelius progressively stripped away formal markers of sonata form in his work and, instead of contrasting multiple themes, he focused on the idea of continuously evolving cells and fragments culminating in a grand statement. His later works are remarkable for their sense of unbroken development, progressing by means of thematic permutations and derivations. The completeness and organic feel of this synthesis has prompted some to suggest that Sibelius began his works with their finished statement and worked backwards, although analyses showing these predominantly three- and four-note cells and melodic fragments as they are developed and expanded into the larger "themes" effectively prove the opposite.[1]
Like many of his contemporaries, Sibelius was initially enamored with the music of Wagner. A performance of Parsifal at the Bayreuth Festival had a strong effect on him, inspiring him to write to his wife shortly thereafter, "Nothing in the world has made such an impression on me, it moves the very strings of my heart." He studied the scores of Wagner's operas Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, and Die Walküre intently. With this music in mind, Sibelius began work on an opera of his own, entitled Veneen luominen (The Building of the Boat).
However, his appreciation for Wagner waned and Sibelius ultimately rejected Wagner's Leitmotif compositional technique, considering it to be too deliberate and calculated. Departing from opera, he later used the musical material from the incomplete Veneen luominen in his Lemminkäinen Suite (1893).
More lasting influences included Ferruccio Busoni, Anton Bruckner and Tchaikovsky. Hints of Tchaikovsky's music are particularly evident in works such as Sibelius' First Symphony (1899) and his Violin Concerto (1905). Similarities to Bruckner are most strongly felt in the 'unmixed' timbral palette and sombre brass chorales of Sibelius' orchestration, as well as in the latter composer's fondness for pedal points and in the underlying slow pace of his music.
Sibelius progressively stripped away formal markers of sonata form in his work and, instead of contrasting multiple themes, he focused on the idea of continuously evolving cells and fragments culminating in a grand statement. His later works are remarkable for their sense of unbroken development, progressing by means of thematic permutations and derivations. The completeness and organic feel of this synthesis has prompted some to suggest that Sibelius began his works with their finished statement and worked backwards, although analyses showing these predominantly three- and four-note cells and melodic fragments as they are developed and expanded into the larger "themes" effectively prove the opposite.[1]
Hope you enjoy!
Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
The trans-atlantic link is responsible for that and the US has actively campaigned to keep it that way.
It boggles the mind that the EU Member states think an EU Common Foreign and Security Policy worth its name, and a proper European Defence Agency, are a threat to their sovereignty, but that NATO where they do what the US says is not. We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
NATO exists. NATO works. Why change something that works and replace it with something that might not? Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
As for Bosnia, Europe's failure there is responsible for the decision to create a European Common Foreign and Security Policy, which did not exist before. So, again, you can't fault Europe for not using a tool that did not exist before 1995. Regarding Kosovo, UpstateNY has provided interesting insights into the less-than-helpful diplomacy conducted by the US. I shall dig up the links.
As for Bosnia, Europe's failure there is responsible for the decision to create a European Common Foreign and Security Policy, which did not exist before. So, again, you can't fault Europe for not using a tool that did not exist before 1995.
Regarding Kosovo, UpstateNY has provided interesting insights into the less-than-helpful diplomacy conducted by the US. I shall dig up the links.
Well, and the Brits who do what the Americans tell them too. And all the frontline states and former communist occupied states who desperately try to make the Americans happy so they'll be protected from Russia. Anyone starting to see the problem with European security policy and institutions, and why the transtalantic link is vital?
Anyone starting to see the problem with European security policy and institutions, and why the transtalantic link is vital?
I would suggest that America is too diverse to say how the world looks from the point of view of a normal American. A normal African-American? A normal Texan? A normal Manhattan-ite? A normal 30-something? A normal retiree? A normal suburbanite? I will say this: I am constantly shocked, appalled and impressed by Americans I know. If I learned anything from my little foray into politics, it is that you simply cannot assume anything about anyone - they will prove you wrong. And I get out, you know, am engaged with the world around me. There is just a very diverse set of experiences in the big country. So, if you are looking for some illumination, good luck. Half of us here are looking for it too...
But Drew is right: there is little coverage of Europe here unless you have a bombing or school shooting or something... "Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
unless you have a bombing or school shooting or something...
Or the Brits setting London on fire again. But they were about due for another one.... Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
Samuel Pepys, 5th September 1666, while the Fire was raging:
discourses now begun that there is a plot in it and that the French had done it
Who else?
Poemless or Izzy might be the good bet, but I may give it a shot.
I think the typical American likely kinda-sorta keeps up with what goes on in the world, but will also have a tendency to say, "Jesus, the world's going to hell. I can't keep up with this." And I sympathize with that view to a large degree, because it's difficult to balance all of the issues (the war, the economy and health care, situations like Darfur, climate change, terrorism, the alarming disappearance among middle-class white women), but it doesn't make the view any less dangerous. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
Your sentence implies that US strategy under the NATO umbrella (or foreign policy in general) is in some way related (consequental? subordinate?) to the will of the American people. I can't help but find the idea hilarious.
My impression has always been that the average John Doe could care less about foreign policy. And is amazingly uninformed. Clapping seals for the most part.
