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And, plus, if we didn't "rescue" you damned Europeans every now and then, how would Washington keep us up on our geography?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:27:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He has a good point there...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a bit of an expensive way to learn geography though isn't it? seeing as at school it is just a fancy name for colouring in (teachers in joke from friends of mine)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ceebs, you don't understand.  This is America.  We have credit cards and home equity loans and the Chinese to take care of that.  You can't ask us to put down our PlayStations to go and learn bullshit at school.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good job you learnt to write before you got your playstation ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We didn't have PlayStations when I was a kid.  Had to walk fifteen miles to play Nintendos.  In the snow.  With no shoes on.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And when we grew up, the world was all in black and white, it was only the US where the world was in colour.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because color = good.  Look at the North Koreans.  Always in black and white.  It's because they're evildoers.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so colour is good unless it's red

I could almost be an American

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, red is good.  Dear Leader's states are Red.  I saw it on the liberal media.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so what's the difference between dear leaders red, and the godless comunist hordes red?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:07:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it's that hordes don't have states (officially.)

(You made me--yes!--imagine an evil tribe growing out of america, enslaving everyone in some terrible violent misery of endless them, and their flag would  be red, a different shade to the russians of course, a bit more lipstick red in there, hidden away, so...okay...none of that dark purple--oh and, shit, the chinese have a red flag too--the battle of the reds!)

Cough cough!  Very very very enjoyable, thanks ceebs and Drew!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
payback in entertainment form for all of the music you supply. ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Friggin' Brits, you haven't produced any top artists since Oasis' second record, and you are the ones, after all, who export all of these ridiculous pop-star television shows to us.  Bad Britain.  Sophisticated American consumer judges you!

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You've got no taste, we Brits havent produced any good music since way before Oasis ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aw, come on.  What's the Story was a great record.  But, okay, how about Zeppelin IV?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:02:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, but since then I'd probably throw in London Calling by the Clash, Unknown pleasures by Joy Division, One Step Beyond by Madness, New Boots and Panties by Ian Dury and the Blockheads, The Fat of the Land by the prodigy, specials,by the specials, and OK computer (although I have been prefering the dub reimagining rather than the radiohead version)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:24:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of the ones on there I've heard, good picks.  I quite agree.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:34:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've never been that convinced by oasis

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:40:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've certainly not heard anything from them in a solid decade that was worth the time.  But, again, What's the Story was a big favorite of mine when I was younger.  And it made for a good time when trying to figure out songs my buddy and I both knew how to play when I was in Britain.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oasis Lyrics!

Today is gonna be the day
That they're gonna throw it back to you
By now you should've somehow
Realized what you gotta do
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do about you now

Backbeat the word was on the street
That the fire in your heart is out
I'm sure you've heard it all before
But you never really had a doubt
I don't believe that anybody feels
The way I do about you now

And all the roads we have to walk along are winding
And all the lights that lead us there are blinding
There are many things that I would
Like to say to you
I don't know how

Because maybe
You're gonna be the one who saves me ?
And after all
You're my wonderwall

Today was gonna be the day?
But they'll never throw it back to you
By now you should've somehow
Realized what you're not to do
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do
About you now

And all the roads that lead to you were winding
And all the lights that light the way are blinding
There are many things that I would like to say to you
I don't know how

I said maybe
You're gonna be the one who saves me ?
And after all
You're my wonderwall

I said maybe
You're gonna be the one who saves me ?
And after an
You're my wonderwall

Said maybe
You're gonna be the one that saves me
You're gonna be the one that saves me
You're gonna be the one that saves me

Okay...okay.

You have to watch the intro to this and then the song is at -3:35

%+:;;'7})

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 07:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you hate America, or just freedom in general?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:51:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm European, of course I hate freedom in general, it's part of my being a goddless communist. (that and knowing that baseball is really a girls game)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, now, as a Southerner, the Baseball as Girls Game stab is fine by me.  It's a sport for those fairies up in the Union.

In fact, why don't you Godless commies play it like your Yankee cousins?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 07:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well most of your sports it's like health and safety gone mad. All that padding and helmets and having to stop every few seconds for a rest to play a game that's even vaguely like rugby. Although I suppose that your youth are now learning to play proper football and finaly joining in proper world competitions.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:15:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, but our people are twice the size of your people.  What's a typical rugby player weigh -- maybe 180?  We've got field goal kickers larger than your rugby players.

And of course we need breaks.  Do you know how difficult it is to run after eating half a dozen Big Macs every day for twenty years?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:39:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And it's obviously a sport that teaches the ethics of an intensely class ridden society, after all every player has to know his place.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Class and race with a lot of Rome sprinkled in.  Could be worse:  the rural types watch cars drive in circles for five hours.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:46:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
all that and chariot racing too. Truly you are the new Rome

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, Rome's got nothin' on us.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 09:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well when one of your presidents torches rome, sleeps with his sister and gets a horse sworn into congress I'll admit that.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 09:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rome? I meant Washington.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 09:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure we could swing it, but probably not this go-round.  We're a bit short on Southerners for 2008.


Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 10:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus, remember, our tax cuts pay for themselves, but you Godless commits across the Pond apparently didn't get the memo.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah it's that no taxation without representation gig isn't it. so as you get tax cuts, you get less represented by your government?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's right.  No taxation without representation.

You know, I think we may be the only country in history to have ever launched a revolution after having our taxes cut.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well it was just that you hadn't invented bathtubs yet, so didn't  know what to do with governments?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not true.  Everybody knows it's the French who couldn't get it together on bathtubs.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so not just capable of writing but a dangerous knowledge of geography and history, I'm surprised that you havnt been locked up as a dangerous interlectual ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And stereotypes, thank you very much.  It's my saving grace.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still, if the Americans didn't rescue us, who would?

It's not like we can/want to do it ourselves.

Remember how well we handled the Balkan conflicts until the Americans bailed us out?

European countries just don't seem to care about security (except France and the occasional sidekick venturing into Africa).

Well, and the Brits who do what the Americans tell them too.

And all the frontline states and former communist occupied states who desperately try to make the Americans happy so they'll be protected from Russia.

Anyone starting to see the problem with European security policy and institutions, and why the transtalantic link is vital?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyone starting to see the problem with European security policy and institutions, and why the transtalantic link is vital?

Is it a case of: who is happy to play me for a schmuck, take what I'm schmuck enough to give them, and just not care if I get upset?

As I've understood things so far, our dangers are from within (e.g. growing alienated "under" classes; e.g. rich elites taking too much and leaving too many without necessities--they certainly), and also from without: we are "rich"; and as America implodes or draws back, sorts out its problems, Europe will be more comfortable, maybe--I don't know, but while we fund the "big power" battles, however we fund them, we'll get targeted as "supporters of big power battles"....

So....do we have to support one them?  Should it be called "Europe", knowing what we do about the lack of basic morals involved at the high end of finance (I think the exceptions, being so exceptional...do they prove the rule?)...heh...

I would like to see a common european defence policy, but look at our "leaders"--I have to suffer Gordon Brown!  I'm watching America get its act together on renewables, and in five years there will be those countries at the forefront of the green revolution, and a brit politician will announce that, "The government has come to an agreement with Al-Knussen-Pen-Hi-Prom.  They will set up factories here.  Of course, we've said they won't have to pay any taxes."

The enemy!  Who or what is it or are they?  Ho heh.....<cough>....

Er....

hmmmmm....

(I'm listening to that piece below)

Jean Sibelius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like many of his contemporaries, Sibelius was initially enamored with the music of Wagner. A performance of Parsifal at the Bayreuth Festival had a strong effect on him, inspiring him to write to his wife shortly thereafter, "Nothing in the world has made such an impression on me, it moves the very strings of my heart." He studied the scores of Wagner's operas Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, and Die Walküre intently. With this music in mind, Sibelius began work on an opera of his own, entitled Veneen luominen (The Building of the Boat).

However, his appreciation for Wagner waned and Sibelius ultimately rejected Wagner's Leitmotif compositional technique, considering it to be too deliberate and calculated. Departing from opera, he later used the musical material from the incomplete Veneen luominen in his Lemminkäinen Suite (1893).

More lasting influences included Ferruccio Busoni, Anton Bruckner and Tchaikovsky. Hints of Tchaikovsky's music are particularly evident in works such as Sibelius' First Symphony (1899) and his Violin Concerto (1905). Similarities to Bruckner are most strongly felt in the 'unmixed' timbral palette and sombre brass chorales of Sibelius' orchestration, as well as in the latter composer's fondness for pedal points and in the underlying slow pace of his music.

Sibelius progressively stripped away formal markers of sonata form in his work and, instead of contrasting multiple themes, he focused on the idea of continuously evolving cells and fragments culminating in a grand statement. His later works are remarkable for their sense of unbroken development, progressing by means of thematic permutations and derivations. The completeness and organic feel of this synthesis has prompted some to suggest that Sibelius began his works with their finished statement and worked backwards, although analyses showing these predominantly three- and four-note cells and melodic fragments as they are developed and expanded into the larger "themes" effectively prove the opposite.[1]

Hope you enjoy!



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I can lean out the winda and get a whiff of 'is triplets, cos 'e only lived just up the road. Nice fella. Smoked a lot.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 05:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rescue us from whom? The problem is precisely that the European security apparatus is entirely predicated around depending on the US and is subordinate to US interests, not European ones.

The trans-atlantic link is responsible for that and the US has actively campaigned to keep it that way.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 04:02:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We do have the EU Battlegroup (kampfgruppe!) stuff going on, but that is the sole light in the valley of the shadow of death which is EU security policy.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 08:34:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And still, that is an expeditionary thing, not something which has to do with security of Europe except indirectly.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 08:35:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And what does NATO have to do with the security of Europe directly?

It boggles the mind that the EU Member states think an EU Common Foreign and Security Policy worth its name, and a proper European Defence Agency, are a threat to their sovereignty, but that NATO where they do what the US says is not.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 08:45:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no problem at all, really, with an EU Common Foreign and Security Policy worth its name and a proper European Defence Agency, even though I can't see much use in the second as we already have NATO.

NATO exists. NATO works. Why change something that works and replace it with something that might not?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 08:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NATO works? For what value of "works"?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 09:15:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By providing a definite security guarantee and a common command & control structure?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 09:27:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember how well we handled the Balkan conflicts until the Americans bailed us out?
Migeru:

As for Bosnia, Europe's failure there is responsible for the decision to create a European Common Foreign and Security Policy, which did not exist before. So, again, you can't fault Europe for not using a tool that did not exist before 1995.

Regarding Kosovo, UpstateNY has provided interesting insights into the less-than-helpful diplomacy conducted by the US. I shall dig up the links.

When you say
Well, and the Brits who do what the Americans tell them too.

And all the frontline states and former communist occupied states who desperately try to make the Americans happy so they'll be protected from Russia.

Anyone starting to see the problem with European security policy and institutions, and why the transtalantic link is vital?

I think the problem is the transatlantic link. When France, Belgium and Germany wanted to get some European Defence structure in place the UK insisted it not be left out, and subsequently torpedoes it because it was redundant with NATO. As for the new EU member states, they seem to want to stick it in the eye to Russia out of spite and coddling up to the US allows them to do that.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 09:05:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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