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To be nihilistic in a different way: to what extend is this meant to find numbers in which the EU does beat the US? It is of course clear that GDP doesn't capture everything that is relevant, but any single number that is going to capture wealth AND societal effects AND environmental effects is going to have a large arbitrary component in it, making it even more vulnerable to political misuse than GDP.

If you want to capture a complicated story, you need more numbers, not just different ones. But perhaps I am too sceptical.

by GreatZamfir on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:25:14 AM EST
Maybe. There are a lot of indicators one can use, but there also are improvements in tracking these indicators. We already know, for that measure, that the EU beats the US in terms of sustainable development. How do you express that? You also don't specifically need to use a single measure. You can use a variety of measures that acknowledge that there are no trade-offs between many of the measures (you can't compensate destroying the planet by increasing economic growth, as DeAnander might point out).

However, putting these measures into a coherent framework is a lot of work! I started a hobby project in doing this last year (see this diary), but quickly found that it is very time-intensive. Would love to go to the conference, but I have a budget to think about. I hope there's good documentation.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:11:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to capture a complicated story, you need more numbers, not just different ones.

The "Beyond GDP" website FAQ mentions this approach, albeit very briefly:

Beyond GDP - International Conference - 19 & 20 November 2007, Brussels

Indicator sets (e.g. those comprised of environmental, economic and social indicators) are yet another way of complementing the single use of GDP. A recently started effort - the Canadian Index of Well-being - is under development in Canada.

The Canadian Index of Well-being's Contribution to Beyond GDP "Virtual Indicator Expo" (PDF) states that:

The CIW will track changes in eight quality-of-life domains.

These are:

     Living Standards
     Healthy Populations
     Educated Populace
     Vital Communities
     Ecosystem Health
     Civic Engagement
     Time Use
     Arts and Culture

In fact, though, there are plenty of "indicator sets" already available, provided for example by the OECD, EuroStat, Worldmapper, and others, many linked to on the "Beyond GDP" website.

The big question is:  Is it easier to persuade everyone to do away with a single indicator altogether for measuring the overall health of a society, or is it easier to come up a composite index (i.e. a single number) that while not perfect at least takes into consideration a far broader and more pertinent set of factors than the unidimensional GDP we have now?

(Actually, even the Canadian Index of Well-being project hedges a bit in that paper --

The domains will be blended into a composite index that will provide a quick snapshot of
whether overall Canadian wellbeing is changing for better or for worse.
CIW reports will
present detailed information on both the composite index and the individual domains. The
CIW's `basket' of domains will be reported regularly with clarity about trends and interrelated
stories (e.g., "While X is on the rise, it is interesting to note that Y is flat, and Z is declining.
Possible explanations include..."
).

-- no doubt in acknowledgement of the possibility that people will continue to discuss, compare, judge, criticize, rank, etc. in terms of a single number.)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:39:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now the CIW is a pretty good measure, in my opinion, although I'm not sure I buy the "Vital Communities," "Arts and Culture," and "Civic Engagement" variables, since I think that's too much a matter of taste.  The obvious question:  What, exactly, are those measuring?

The "Arts and Culture" variable also at least sounds like it would favor certain places above others, perhaps unfairly.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 10:39:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
although I'm not sure I buy the "Vital Communities," "Arts and Culture," and "Civic Engagement" variables, since I think that's too much a matter of taste.  The obvious question:  What, exactly, are those measuring?

Yeah, there's the rub.

Although a piece in yesterday's New York Times agrees that it's not GDP, nor Happiness, but Leisure and Social Interaction that we should measure -- and try to improve:

The era of laissez-faire happiness might be coming to an end. Some prominent economists and psychologists are looking into ways to measure happiness to draw it into the public policy realm. Thirty years from now, reducing unhappiness could become another target of policy, like cutting poverty. <...>

Happiness seems fairly cheap to manipulate. <...>

A notorious study in 1974 found that despite some 30 years worth of stellar economic growth, Americans were no happier than they were at the end of World War II. A more recent study found that life satisfaction in China declined between 1994 and 2007, a period in which average real incomes grew by 250 percent.

Happiness, it appears, adapts. It's true that the rich are happier, on average, than the poor. But while money boosts happiness, the effect doesn't last. We just become envious of a new, richer set of people than before. Satisfaction soon settles back to its prior level, as we adapt to changed circumstances and set our expectations to a higher level.

<...>

Despite happiness' apparently Sisyphean nature, there may be ways to increase satisfaction over the long term. While the extra happiness derived from a raise or a winning lottery ticket might be fleeting, studies have found that the happiness people derive from free time or social interaction is less susceptible to comparisons with other people around them. Nonmonetary rewards -- like more vacations, or more time with friends or family -- are likely to produce more lasting changes in satisfaction.

<...>

More broadly, if the object of public policy is to maximize society's well-being, more attention should be placed on fostering social interactions and less on accumulating wealth. If growing incomes are not increasing happiness, perhaps we should tax incomes more to force us to devote less time and energy to the endeavor and focus instead on the more satisfying pursuit of leisure.

All They Are Saying is Give Happiness a Chance

If so, it would suggest that the CIW is at least on the right track with its "Vital Communities" and "Time Use" categories, despite the challenges od measuring those that you point out.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:09:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that CIW looks interesting. The thing that bothers me on this conference is the heavy political influence in it, with half of the organizing committee being EU politicians.

I understand that a single indicator can be useful, if only for communication purposes. However, any composite index will need many choices about what to include and how to wheigh them. And given that there is no more or less "natural" choice for these weights (as opposed to for example the weights used in stock market indices),
it is going to be vulnerable to tuning to get desirable answers.

To put it bluntly, I can't imagine the EU developing an index on which it (or at least its richer parts) score below the US, nor one on which Germany and France differ substantially from each other, or score below the UK. In fact, I don't think the UK will adopt any measure developed  by the EU, no matter how well it scores on it. Basically, if the EU as organization is involved in its development, no matter how good the measure is, it will be a bit suspect

I think it would be much safer if separate people, countries and organizations develop their own measures for their own purposes, much like the CIW you mention. Then, after these have been tested and fine-tuned we can compare them, see how they correlate and scale to different countries and situations. After that, the politicians can come in and pick one that works as they would like it. Let them pick a car but not design the engine.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but this conference seems to be about a much earlier stage in the development. It would be wise to let them explain what they would like to see in an index, but please let independent people develop the details.

by GreatZamfir on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 10:44:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pieter Everaers: European Commission, Eurostat
Enrico Giovannini: OECD
Hazel Henderson: Club of Rome
Andreas Huber: European Parliament
Tony Long: WWF
Robin Miège: European Commission, DG Environment

I see only one politician.* Being in the eurostat service or the DG environment does not make you a politician.

*Actually, not one. I looked up Andreas Huber, and he's head of the environment committee secretariat of the EP, not a Member of Parliament himself.

These are all civil servants.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:10:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First of all, you're exactly right on the need to move away from single criteria in political economy. Not necessarily a different number but more numbers. Personally, I think for instance the Human Development Index is less informative than its three component indicators.

The Human Development Index (HDI) then represents the average of the following three general indices:

LE: Life expectancy at birth
ALR: Adult literacy rate (ages 15 and older)
CGER: Combined gross enrolment ratio for primary, secondary and tertiary schools
GDPpc: GDP per capita at PPP in USD

It's possible that the EU is just trying to come up with a measure that makes it look better than the US, but I think the problem is that the EU has gotten itself into a pinch with its Lisbon Strategy for Growth and Jobs, especially on the "Growth" bit, because "growth" is not sustainable as currently configured (for a data point, see my diary Spain is unsustainable on November 11th, 2007). It has been suggested to make non-renewable resource extraction (which is not "production"!) contribute a negative amount to GDP as a way to measure "sustainable" growth.

On the "jobs" part of the Lisbon strategy, when one thinks that filling a call centre with telemarketers counts as "jobs", one realizes that there's more to a sensible employment policy than to get people to spend 8 hours a day doing no matter what to earn a living.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:08:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't quite follow the EU needing or wanting a measure that makes it look better than the US.  Isn't the EU growing faster at the moment, or did the US pull ahead again in the last two quarters?

The use of non-renewable resources is already captured in future GDP.  We could put it in the current figure, but I think we'd really just be talking about one means of accounting vs another.

The problem with GDP -- and here I'm speaking only to the economics of it -- is that it doesn't give our populations a full story on how the typical person is doing.  Median real income growth/contraction is a much better measure, but that, too, isn't perfect.  GDP is fine for central bankers who need a picture of the economy as a whole, but it's of little use beyond those sorts of macroeconomic issues.

The HDI is a good start as a measure that the public can use to judge how things are going, but I agree with everyone here about needing more numbers.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 10:27:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru above already mentioned the Lisbon agenda. In 2000, there was a large conference with all European leaders, and they made plans to

"make Europe, by 2010, the most competitive and the most dynamic knowledge-based economy in the world".

With this, they of course implicitly claimed that the EU was in 2000 not the most competitive blah-blah of the world. Since then, little has been done and nothing has been achieved. European growth figures haven't changed much and US GDP and productivity growth have been comparable or higher than those of the EU countries most of the time. Most projects announced. like the European Institute of Technology, have been ditched because no one was interested.

So,there is reason to suspect that the European Committee would very much like to have a different index on which the EU is doing better than the US, is growing faster than the US, etcetera.

If you believe that the EU was OK in 2000, than it still is doing fine. If you think the EU had a problem in 2000, then the problem hasn't gone away. But the Committee will soon have claim that the EU was doing bad in 2000 and a great job now, so they are in definite need for creative accounting.

by GreatZamfir on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 11:34:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if that is what the EU is truing to do it shouldn't be allowed to.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 11:50:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Growth in knowledge is totally sustainable.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 11:53:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the thing about "most competitive", "most dynamic", "growth" coming from a bunch of economic neoliberals.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 11:56:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well you have expressed your views on the EU fairly vehemently ;-)

But I still think the Lisbon Declaration was a 'good thing', and that the failed promise to implement its aims is regrettable.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the concern being voiced here is that this is a PR exercise, moving the goalposts so that the EU can claim it has achieved the goals it merked for itself in 2010. That's what I was referring to when I said "if this is what the EU is trying to do".

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My misunderstanding.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:49:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think they are. Note that they don't have Al Gore on the list of speakers :-)

(These kinds of conferences don't get that much media attention, really)

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:58:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least this brief conversation lead me to the guy's writing who the Lisbon Agenda (or whatever it is called) was based upon: Joseph Alois Schumpeter (February 8, 1883 - January 8, 1950). Austrian chappie played by Peter Lorre in the movie '"Über die matematische Methode der theoretischen Ökonomie". The new Director's Final CutDVD is just out. Fellow called Read all about him here.

Schumpeter and democratic theory

In the same book, Schumpeter expounded a theory of democracy which sought to challenge what he called the 'classical doctrine'. He disputed the idea that democracy was a process by which the electorate identified the common good, and politicians carried this out for them. He argued this was unrealistic, and that people's ignorance and superficiality meant that in fact they were largely manipulated by politicians, who set the agenda. This made a 'rule by the people' concept both unlikely and undesirable. Instead he advocated a minimalist model, much influenced by Max Weber, whereby democracy is the mechanism for competition between leaders, much like a market structure. Although periodical votes from the general public legitimize governments and keep them accountable, the policy program is very much seen as their own and not that of the people, and the participatory role for individuals is severely limited.



You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 02:03:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Someone is doing something...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 02:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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